Abortion issues

Petr

Administrator
This thread is dedicated to discussion of various aspects of abortion question.

For starters:



This is NOT just modern edgy "Alt Right Christian" talk; it turns out that Augustine of Hippo already had a take on this subject - which he had learned from pagan philosophers like Plato, and from his own sober sense - that modern people might well see as a "Fascist" approach, namely that morally corrupt, degenerate people do not deserve to have political self-determination:

The real solution to the culture war is the one proposed long ago by the great St. Augustine of Hippo, “If a people gradually become depraved, if it hands over the government to wicked and criminal men, then that power of conferring honors ought rightly to be taken away from such a people and restored to those few who are good.” (De libero arbitrio voluntatis, i, 6).

Here is the original text:

A. Then, if a people is well-disciplined and observant of social good, and such that every individual puts public before private interest, is not this people rightly granted by law authority to elect its own officials to govern its affairs, that is, the affairs of the state?
E. Certainly.
A. If the people gradually deteriorates and prefers private to public interest, and sells its vote for bribes, and is corrupted by ambitious politicians, and puts into power criminals with no sense of honour, would not any honest man of sufficient influence who is left be justified in depriving this people of self-government, and in putting them under the authority of a few honest men or even of one?13
E. Quite justified.
 

Petr

Administrator
Here is a raw and honest Dissident Right take on pro-abortion people - Ernst Jünger was one of those guys who were sort of like "half pagan and half Christian." Jünger (like Carl Schmitt) gave strong heathen vibes, but comments like this prove that he also had imbibed some deep moral lessons from traditional Christianity.

Thus he was able to see that abortionism was an inherent part of the hypocritical degeneracy of Nietzsche's "Last Man," or the shitty end-product of civilization - someone who pretends to abhor warfare and violence, and is even very lenient on violent criminals, but is capable of using murderous violence against those who are weakest, and cannot in any way retaliate.

To express things in clinical language, the maintenance of the comfort level of hedonists necessitates the elimination of those upcoming persons whose undesired birth might seriously reduce the quality of their material lifestyles. Therefore, these kind of creeps can better handle the defeat and disgrace of their countries, or replacement of their peoples, than the birth of children they have carelessly sired.


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Petr

Administrator
And speaking of Last Man, in Thus Spake Zarathustra, once the prophet has ended his spirited denunciation of this repulsive figure, it turns out that the masses want just that kind of base material happiness:

And here ended the first discourse of Zarathustra, which is also called ‘The Prologue’, for at this point the shouting and mirth of the multitude interrupted him. “Give us this last man, O Zarathustra,”—they called out—“make us into these last men! Then will we make thee a present of the Superman!” And all the people exulted and smacked their lips.

One can clearly see that in spite of his pagan views, Nietzsche, too, was consciously imitating the writing style of Old Testament. And he might have also learned from the Bible this bitter lesson that given the opportunity, the fallen mankind, or numerical majority of its members, will gladly accept rotten material comforts over higher ideals. Thus Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage, Israelites worshipped the Golden Calf and the mob preferred Barabbas to Christ.

This is something that Christians might wish to keep in mind in these days of electoral defeats for pro-lifers - even at its very best, democracy can ever be only a means to an end, never the end itself:


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Petr

Administrator
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Abortion is the Sacrament of Trashworld

This week the State of Ohio voted by a nearly ten-point margin to enshrine abortion as a constitutional right. Ohio is not a far-left blue state like California or New York, it is a conservative red state that Donald Trump won by almost the same margin in 2020. The results of this ballot amendment have shocked many in the pro-life movement.​
It should not.​
For decades Pro-Life, Inc. and most of conservative evangelicalism has pushed this single issue in isolation from all the rest of modern American life. They have operated as though everything else in American life can remain the same so long as we stop murdering babies. This has always been nonsense.
All of our modern way of life is structured around the murder of tiny children. Consumerist, managerial, liberal society requires all of humanity to be deracinated, stripped of particular, historic ways of life, and every single person reduced to bare individuals. The order that God created for humanity, to have marriage, family, and children, the very necessities for a civilization to function and perpetuate itself is now a consumer lifestyle choice, among a myriad of others. There is no marriage as nearly all of human existence has known it. Now it is merely a legal compact for two adults to live and share property together, to be dissolved whenever there is no longer mutual consent.​
Abortion allows women to be unshackled from their telos, their divinely-ordained, unique purpose—to bear and rear children. Now, they can be bare economic units consuming whatever they produce, and free to pursue whatever way of life they desire, even to become “men.” The basis of our entire society is the freedom to become whatever you want, created realities be damned. You don’t want to be uniquely bestowed with the power to bring new human life into the world? Then we can kill that life whenever it is created in your body.​
Abortion is the sacrament of this total freedom and atomized individualism. It is the barbaric ritual-killing, blood must be shed so you can be free to enjoy brunch and swiping right. The entirety of American society, and especially what the American views as its highest good, requires abortion be held sacrosanct.​
The mainstream evangelical Christian, the bulwark that gives the Pro-Life movement its energy and foot soldiers does not view American society this way at all. It believes that the consumerist, liberal paradise is just fine, so long as we don’t chop up babies. They believe we can still have our feminism, our “strong, independent women,” and a country that is reduced to an economic zone, so long as abortion is banned.
The end of Roe v. Wade has revealed what folly this is. The rot within American society is deep. Much, much deeper than most are willing to understand. You could see this even as early as 2015, when Donald Trump was asked about criminalizing abortion and punishing women who sought to murder their children. Every major figure within Pro-Life, Inc. raced to condemn Trump as quickly as possible. Their entire strategy was built around the comical fantasy that women who seek to have their child dismembered in the womb were victims who had no idea what they were doing.
They embraced the feminist frame, blaming all abortion squarely upon men. Whatever they did, they would not confront feminism or the underlying economic and social conditions that require the industrial-scale slaughter of babies. No, they dare not touch these things, because they are the idols that we tolerate within the church. We have bought the lie that women and men are exactly the same except for a few bits of hardware. We are terrified of saying that most women should be wives and mothers and not pursue careers. That would limit freedom, and well, we cannot have that.​
But until Christians are willing to confront the revolutionary restructuring of human society over the last hundred years, industrialized infanticide is here to stay. You can put up as many billboards of beautiful smiling infants that say “choose life” as you want, but the social, economic, and spiritual forces that drive the slaughter of millions of babies are not going to go away. Only when feminism and radical individualism are seen as satanic ideologies will we ever gain any ground.
But our current way of life, which I have called “trashworld” in The Boniface Option, is both doomed for destruction and must be destroyed. No civilization can exist like this forever. Not in the temporal sense nor the spiritual. God has created a world with order, just as He created a world with gravity. Nearly all of mankind throughout history could not live the way we do, even if they wanted to, because they lacked the hyper-efficient global economy that produces the unfathomable wealth and standard of living we currently enjoy. This affluence—which we foolishly believe is the baseline for human existence—is what allows us to indulge in civilization-destroying monstrosity. The natural order still exists. Gravity still exists. And the wealth we enjoy allows us to stand over the edge of the cliff like Wile E. Coyote, suspended in mid-air safe so long as we do not look down.​
Looking down, however, is inevitable.​
And a society like ours will not continue on forever. There will be judgment.​
The question is whether the beginning of the unraveling of a great civilization like ours will provoke repentance, first in evangelical pulpits and churches, and then throughout the nation, or if God will allow what we deserve to befall us.​
Our hope should be in the grace of God, that He will move powerfully to fundamentally transform our entire way of life. It should not be in “one, weird legislative trick” to keep Trashworld going but just without baby murder. The ax must go to the root and not glance about the edges. If the revolutionary change to our way of life that has occurred in the last hundred years is to be turned back, it must be by an equally powerful counter-revolution, a counter-revolution led by the people of God.​
 
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Mike

qui transtulit sustinet
Re Ohio, from CNN:
With the passage of the ballot measure Issue 1, Ohio will be prevented from restricting abortion access before fetal viability, which doctors believe to be around 22 to 24 weeks of pregnancy. After viability, the state can restrict abortion access unless the patient’s life or health are at risk.

24 weeks is about five and a half months. Trump's call for a national 15-week limit (which if I recall correctly he made during Tucker's recent interview) starts to look like less of a betrayal -- in politics sometimes you take what you can get. Trump is far from standing firm on this issue, so who knows if he would even hold to 15 weeks.

I agree with Andrew Isker's points. In the long term, I am not sure what can be done about this issue in the current climate if it's treated as an isolated issue. In the short term, there is evidence that the no-exceptions stance (or the perception of the no-exceptions stance) both is not gaining traction and is hurting the GOP. And it's not the only thing we have to worry about in this country.
 
Re Ohio, from CNN:


24 weeks is about five and a half months. Trump's call for a national 15-week limit (which if I recall correctly he made during Tucker's recent interview) starts to look like less of a betrayal -- in politics sometimes you take what you can get. Trump is far from standing firm on this issue, so who knows if he would even hold to 15 weeks.

I agree with Andrew Isker's points. In the long term I am not sure what can be done about this issue in the current climate if it's treated as isolated issue. In the short term there is evidence that the no-exceptions stance (or the perception of the no-exceptions stance) both not gaining traction and hurting the GOP. And it's not the only thing we have to worry about in this country.
No exception is madness and will never gain traction politically or any other way. "Yeah, the Negro raped you, beat you within an inch of your life, but you have to bear his child because muh morality" Never will this be a winning proposition as it should not be. It doesn't matter though. The crash of our retarded civilization is inevitable.
 
Now for the Muh Moral Absolute crowd. You do have the freedom to abide by these strictures yourself. No one is forcing an abortion on the raped womb of your women.
 
In the realm of the supposed, God created Nature. Now if we look at Nature before the Age of Man (the rule of technology) as much as 50% of babies died in early childhood. Now if this is so terrible, the death of every pregnancy, why did "God" create a nature that takes these lives?
 

Macrobius

Megaphoron
In the realm of the supposed, God created Nature. Now if we look at Nature before the Age of Man (the rule of technology) as much as 50% of babies died in early childhood. Now if this is so terrible, the death of every pregnancy, why did "God" create a nature that takes these lives?

To give us the opportunity to repair the Nature broken by the Fall of Adam and Mankind.

Now, about the works of Corporeal Mercy. Straight from the Bible.

 
Babies are so important until necessary to drop bombs. No one here is a pacifist. So everyone holding this absolute value of baby is a hypocrite. "It is sometimes justified to kill babies in war but never because of stranger rape!" Pushaw
 

clefty

Phoron
In the realm of the supposed, God created Nature. Now if we look at Nature before the Age of Man (the rule of technology) as much as 50% of babies died in early childhood. Now if this is so terrible, the death of every pregnancy, why did "God" create a nature that takes these lives?
hmmm...that is a good one...

how about cuz He understood that love is not forced or bought?

and He created a world which was pro choice...unlike the world "His followers" now wish to create/legislate for ALLwomen... even women who don't believe in Him...free will...or even...you know- Love...

but having chosen NOT to follow Him death came into the plan...not His fault...or what He wanted...

give unto Caesar whether it is drugs, gay marriage, or abortion or any other perversion of His ways...but to God give His...

choose ye this day...but don't just blame Eve
 
Let's do cats next.



Learn plants and animals first. You can do babies later.

Still do not see how one justifies killing babies in war if baby life is an absolute moral value? One is either a pacifist (this is noble, after a fashion) or one understands implicitly that baby life is not an absolute moral value. Other moral values can and do supersede.
 

Macrobius

Megaphoron
Still do not see how one justifies killing babies in war if baby life is an absolute moral value? One is either a pacifist (this is noble, after a fashion) or one understands implicitly that baby life is not an absolute moral value. Other moral values can and do supersede.

The Western Roman theory is the 'Just War' theory articulated by St Augustine.

The Eastern Roman theory I will do do some day, here. It is different.

Warning: Monks go beyond @clefty's take though, and invoked the "Law of Love" even against the rules of the Old Testament.

This won't be a 'comfortable' conversation for anyone.

Starting from the Stoics (or Buddhists) is not a bad idea though -- what would they say? Nature, 'tooth and claw'?
 
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The Western Roman theory is the 'Just War' theory articulated by St Augustine.

The Eastern Roman theory I will do do some day, here. It is different.

Warning: Monks go beyond @clefty's take though, and invoked the "Law of Love" even against the rules of the Old Testament.

This won't be a 'comfortable' conversation for anyone.

Starting from the Stoics (or Buddhists) is not a bad idea though -- what would they say? Nature, 'tooth and claw'?
Nature tooth and claw has always been inaccurate generalization of nature. Plenty of nature is restrained in the use of violence. Most of nature, kitties aside, avoid gratuitous violence. Much of nature runs away. It should read, man's nature tooth and claw. But still balancing this idea that a mother can never abort because life of child supersedes all other values but then bombing cities, starving enemy populations, embargoing medicines, the endless litany of man's violence to man (including babies and innocent children) somehow sneaks in an exception remains mysterious. I suspect an implicit hypocrisy.
 
To restrict the phenomenon we could inculpate those men who partecipate in the fornication that generates an 'unwanted' human being

Save the baby, cut the probe; maybe eunuch-rap becomes a thing
 
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Macrobius

Megaphoron
One aspect that is critical to this topic is "the government's" (state or federal) powers to 'regulate the practice of medicine'.

In particular, if part of Regulating Medicine includes 'enforcement' of the Hippocratic Oath, the doctors are prohibited from aborting fetuses. Otherwise, perhaps 'the Government' chooses to create its own regulations, or to delegate regulation to various 'societies' (on whatever ground).

Follow the regs and you will find the killers.

Reading into this thread: https://thephora.net/phoranova/index.php?threads/medical-licensure-prior-to-1900.1190/post-10399

 
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