“Application of the natural law varies greatly...”

clefty

Phoron
Why is this thread even here? I mean what's the point of it? No engagement - it's just a random assortment of snippets and videos without any coherent theme.



quite interesting it was V2 that encouraged the East to return to its traditions...

from the comments:

"How interesting. This is actually a subject - “ filioque “ - that I am well aware of. We started to notice in our Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy that parenthesis were put around the phrase “ the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father ( and the Son ) “ to actually having ( and the Son ) whitened out, some years later. Very confusing for all of our family ( nine children ) who are used to saying “ from the son “ for most of our life in our Ukrainian parish. When we all gather in our original Ukrainian Catholic Church together for a wedding, funeral or Baptism, it is hilarious to hear us all saying the old version with the current parishioners saying the newest version. What a mishmash - everyone looking at each other in confusion. My Father used to laugh and say “ Does anybody here even know about the importance of this change in the Great Schism?” He was Roman Catholic, so we were all Baptized in the RC, but he knew his Catholic Church history. My Mom and all her relatives were Ukrainian Catholic. We were sent to a Ukrainian Catholic School, so we naturally switched to the church next to our school. Some of us were born Pre Vatican II and also attended the Latin Mass. Kind of a confusing background. I think we will always say “ and from the son “ just because it sounds so familiar."

feel free to engage...as there is a coherent theme:

the various application of His Law...

 
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clefty

Phoron

"This operation of the criminalization of dissent on the part of temporal and spiritual power is not accidental and ought to arouse a very firm condemnation and decisive opposition, both from citizens and their representatives in civil institutions, and also from the faithful and above all from their pastors; a condemnation that cannot be limited to this recent episode, which is very serious in itself, but which must also be extended to the disturbing conspiracy of deviated parts of the State collaborating with deviated parts of the Church: on the one hand the deep state and on the other the deep church, both of which are corrupt and subservient to the globalist elite, with subversive purposes whose ideological bases are united by hatred of Christ, the Church, and the Holy Mass."

the irony that from the very ones who declare a varied application of Natural Law...some variations of their own are criminal

oh and yes it's note Vigano claims it's bad if the globohomo elites unites church and state but ok if he does...
 
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clefty

Phoron


..."deconstruction"...losing faith?...giving up?

even in tennis...if you applying the tennis rules too variously between players or for the wrong motivations...you won't wanna keep playing

repentance... even in tennis is "stop what you are wanting to do...and play by the written rules"...as rules protect the game...

trust me...with some opponents I really wanted an umpire with his rule book...

some players applied rules so variously I wanted to stop playing with them...

as they say..."hate da playa...not da game"...
 
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clefty

Phoron

…and when His Law is not applied it is covered up…

Repeatedly

Thousands of times

Destroying lives and communities

As if by design…
 

clefty

Phoron



"No one has the authority to change Church teaching, as if the truth given is malleable and adaptive to changing cultural norms."

Yeah but...

CCC #1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles.

So which is it?

From the vid:

"what does sacred scripture say?...the Catholic magisterium does not have the authority to change what God has revealed in sacred scripture..."

oh yeah?

How often have I heard argued that "to Peter was given the keys...the Church has authority of its sacred traditions...what is bound on earth is bound... released...released"

“Binding and loosing” is a phrase which comes from the rabbis. It refers to the authority to make decisions binding on the people of God.
This authority includes interpreting and applying the Word of God and admitting people to and excommunicating them from the community of faith." https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-do...ned-in-matthew-1619-and-matthew-1818-refer-to

Throughout that sacred tradition how many other doctrines were established by popular vote and at pristine counsels?

But back to the video:

“These are human inventions, human ideologies that are being pushed and the Church is being used,” Burke added. “And what it does is it renders the Church then into some kind of a human agency, almost like a government agency that’s being manipulated to foster certain programs and certain agenda. ” https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...-german-bishops-over-same-sex-union-blessings

I could add a great deal to that list Burke...especially since this Church became the government agency fostering programs and agendas...

Sadly all this overshadows the ironic need for this synod:

"First and foremost, the Synodal Assembly rightly expresses distress over the scandals of clerical sexual abuse and its coverup by some members of the hierarchy. The Fundamental Text correctly asserts that these scandals have engendered a true crisis of credibility for the Church. This remains an urgent concern that all pastors must share. The shepherds of Christ’s flock must be held accountable for the legal criminality, moral turpitude, and spiritual corruption of these atrocities, and they must also come to grips with the sinful self-referentiality that so often enabled them." https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...rum-i-of-the-german-catholic-synodal-path.pdf

A need because of other human inventions the Church fosters...
 

clefty

Phoron
Quite a few varied applications of His Law this time of year:


The bread being source and summit of the faith you’d think they at least get it right…

Paul insists “get rid of the old leaven, that you may be a new unleavened batch, as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the feast…” just on a different way and day than the joos…and always on a Sunday following theirs?
 

clefty

Phoron
maybe this time of year is a good time for a refresher of the manufacture's default settings?



as if Paul believed the false witnessing jooish slander that "Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered" Acts 6:13-14

this is what Paul told the Romans

Strong'sGreekEnglishMorphology
3551 [e]Νόμον
nomon
LawN-AMS
3767 [e]οὖν
oun
thenConj
2673 [e]καταργοῦμεν
katargoumen
do we nullifyV-PIA-1P
1223 [e]διὰ
dia
throughPrep
3588 [e]τῆς
tēs
-Art-GFS
4102 [e]πίστεως;
pisteōs
faith?N-GFS
3361 [e]μὴ
NeverAdv
1096 [e]γένοιτο,
genoito
may it be!V-AOM-3S
235 [e]ἀλλὰ
alla
Instead,Conj
3551 [e]νόμον
nomon
LawN-AMS
2476 [e]ἱστάνομεν.
histanomen
we uphold.V-PIA-1P


Romans 3:31
 

clefty

Phoron
“Nooooo!!!!!….Women are included!!!!!…”

in advising how varied the Natural Law is applied

The drama…


Good reminder that a lay person concluded the 5th meeting of how varied His Law would be applied…
 

WillTell

Member
The paragraph concludes:

1957 Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures, the natural law remains as a rule that binds men among themselves and imposes on them, beyond the inevitable differences, common principles. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1957.htm

For demonstrated example…the world is watching events unfold in the Ukraine. And as the conflict there might “go nuclear” and involve more and more countries I expect all discussions as to “why...how...when” to be encouraged. And not just because I am a fan of free speech but also good science and balanced theory...”come let us reason”

Politics, resources, race, language, historical boundaries all aside there is yet one aspect in this conflict in Ukraine which has not been given much attention at Phora...or elsewhere to be fair...and that is Religion. A discussion here being stifled or censured?

Would religion motivate Putin to act as he does and why? This loss of life and destruction of property is amongst primarily Christians on both sides. Is there religious grievance behind the current action? And if so how did come to this?

I opened with the teaching that even in diverse cultures the natural law (given by God?) binds men with common principals and yet demands reflection that must take account for the variety of place time and conditions of life. That appears to be a fair assessment of history its tradition.

This reflection of course concludes that natural law is merely applied variously in its accounting to serve as its function to bind men beyond differences but to common principals. And yet throughout history, its traditions, there has been much conflict over “what is to be common”.

Is this being played out now in the Ukraine? And if there is indeed such variance why conflict?

“Uniates share many of the Byzantine rituals of Orthodoxy, but unlike the Russian church recognize the supremacy of the pope -- a difference that makes the two religions incompatible and points up the injustice of the Orthodox Church's effective takeover of its small western neighbor in 1946.” https://www.upi.com/Archives/1992/1...n-Lvovs-Catholic-Cathedral-for/3556719294400/

The article does conclude with the understanding of the common principals of the Law despite its varied applications...”We all believe in Jesus Christ,' says Sister Matko. 'We should be praying for unity, not fighting like this” Ibid. And yet...

And yet NOT common enough.

But is merely switching allegiance to Rome as Ukraine’s spiritual leader enough to mobilize Putin his corrective reform? Or is there further consequence to this varied application of natural law?



Now to be fair this charismatic extreme has also infected Protestants (as by design) and varied their application of law even further with similar consequences.

So does Putin ignore this Uniate variance to focus merely on JWs?

And what of the Queen of Heaven herself? Was this charismatic extreme what she had in mind?

She however did prophecy that Ukraine would be a free, independent state:



Is Putin now acting in her good faith then?

The frontlines between Rome and Moscow have been long ancient and constant...but I doubt this is the common principal binding these men which was intended by the OP.

And yet even as Ukraine returns to Rome the variance of application still remains:



As Ukrainian Catholics still retain from the East the leavened bread and co-mingled with “His blood” served together with a spoon from a chalice and not an unleavened wafer maybe with wine. COVID has had impact here too to the varied application of His teaching.

However beyond the Latin’s crusade Putin must also contend with variations to application WITHIN Orthodoxy...as now it is Moscow vs Constantinople…and Ukraine is insisting to have “reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances” and is willing to die for that independent variance.



Please note I chose Al Jazeera in hopes of a more neutral source.



So not only is Ukraine submitting to Rome altogether but is also separating from Third Rome within the Orthodox faith.

Understandably Putin feels he is fighting defensively. And now add the other reasons for war Putin’s political and economic isolation…and even also adoration by those in the West who feel betrayed by a TOO VARIED application of natural law and long for a White Russian savior.

I hope as time allows this thread will continue with content added with the consequences of a great variation to the application of natural law. A variation by “the traditions of the elders” and “founding fathers of the faith” indeed a common principal binding all men...but in war?

Nothing pisses me off more than seeing the Orthodox go to Rome.

I recently had a conversation with a very low-born elderly Rumanian woman who had a Roman Catholic "friend" tell her she would go to hell if she did not convert to Roman Catholicism.

I tried to tell her that was BULLSHIT.

I always defend the Orthodox in political and cultural terms. They are the "Old Rome."

Rome today is occupied territory.
 

clefty

Phoron
Apparently this “varied application of His Law” started early.

How Paul was understood had much to do with it.

 

clefty

Phoron
A comparison of East and West

…the old traditions… of varied applications



And from a Western POV


…it’s refreshing to see how gentle these warring brothers are with each other as opposed to the "6 million Protestant heretic sects"...

well...then's there Ukraine...maybe not so gentle after all?

we'll see once the Church is the state again...

Spoiler:

around minute 17:00 "we in the West...use unleavened bread...in honor of the joos"...LOL

Sounds fair enough as the East honors the joo by waiting until after their Passover to celebrate their Easter despite His resurrecting on "first fruits" or Bikkurim on that Sunday which EO's renamed their Pascha or Passover...

yup varied applications indeed...
 
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clefty

Phoron





Wonder why John after 5 chapters covering the last supper in his gospel actually leaves this critical event out. His description of His "take this and divide it among yourselves" might have shed more light on how they did it to be more accurate...you know "tradition".

He did include foot washing though. "If I then, your Lord and Teacher have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you" John 13: 14-15

Yet another of His examples hardly followed...
 
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clefty

Phoron
Reminder:

CCC paragraph 1957

“Application of the natural law varies greatly; it can demand reflection that takes account of various conditions of life according to places, times, and circumstances. Nevertheless, in the diversity of cultures…”

One would think with such a broad scope of tolerance multicultural acceptance to the varied applications that this paragraph allows…these things would not matter.


“The Synod of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine has approved switching to the new Julian calendar from Sept. 1.

It means the Church will celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25 instead of Jan. 7. Other holidays with a fixed date will also be moved while the change will not apply to Easter as its date fluctuates.“

Is the tradition…

Dan 7:25 “He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law.
 

clefty

Phoron


oh boy...applications might become less varied?

America after all was not really Christian but Protestant...
 

clefty

Phoron
“Respect my authority”…tradition…

Peter “the first pope” was corrected twice…once by vision…the second by Paul as Peter didn’t apply what the vision taught…a variation which needed correction…

Here church authority is discussed…



Interesting to note John was dictated seven letters to the seven churches in his revelations which were addressed independently and specific to each…

and not through Peter to the Church…

James concluded the Acts 15 council and only in concurrence to what was already established in the Old Testament…and not some new application of His Law…certainly not a new religion

19“Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20”But that we write unto them, that they..”

…W, X, Y and Z… (each expectation already in prior OT scripture/tradition)

21“For… (1063 gar: for, indeed -a conjunc. used to express cause, explanation, inference or continuation https://biblehub.com/greek/1063.htm) Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day.” Acts 15:19-21

So James concluded that council's decision to have the believing goyim merely do 4 things initially to crowd their synagogues every Sabbath as they would learn the rest of Moses as they continued to fellowship to hear of One resurrected.

He later wrote a letter which "For the most part, until the late 20th century, the epistle of James was relegated to benign disregard – though it was shunned by many early theologians and scholars due to its advocacy of Torah observance and good works.[7] Famously, Luther at one time considered the epistle to be among the disputed books, and sidelined it to an appendix,[8] although in his Large Catechism he treated it as the authoritative word of God.[9]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_James

Small wonder James' authority was later sidelined for another...

...and even Luther called his letter an "Echte strohige Epistel." as this Ya'agov disturbed him and his country being jooish and was preaching "a fashion which it is not lawful for us to receive nor observe, being Romans German." (Acts 16 20-21)

 
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clefty

Phoron


...varied applications not so popular?

31:03 "people are exhausted from pouring over the scriptures to find their own answers...there's something comforting to look to an institution..."

politics...religion...medicine...news...Net Flix...yup...let the authorities handle it...
 
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