Commentary on the Prigozhin Coup Attempt
- Thread starter Petr
- Start date
Petr
Administrator
Or to use a more specifically Russian precedent:
en.wikipedia.org
/)
en.wikipedia.org
Moscow uprising of 1682 - Wikipedia
Ivan Andreyevich Khovansky (Tararui) - Wikipedia
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piscamaniac
MAGA Republican
Prigozhin is and ever will remain a hero of the Russian people. The further propagation of autistic ramblings about this incident will pointlessly strengthen Russia's enemies and needs to stop!
Rawhide "Doug" Kobayashi
Сила бога-нам подмога
I first started having some suspicions about Prigozhin when I read this on Wikipedia:
Yevgeny Prigozhin - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Prigozhin was born and raised in Leningrad (now Saint Petersburg) in the Soviet Union on 1 June 1961,[21] to Violetta Prigozhina (Russian: Виолетта Пригожина).[22][23][24] His father died early, and so his mother supported him and his sick grandmother by working at a local hospital.[25] His father and stepfather were of Jewish descent.[26]During his school years, Prigozhin aspired to be a professional cross-country skier. He was trained by his stepfather Samuil Zharkoy, who was an instructor in the sport, and attended a prestigious athletics boarding school from which he graduated in 1977.[22][27] However, his career in sport was ultimately unsuccessful.[28]In November 1979, 18-year-old Prigozhin was caught stealing and given a suspended sentence. Two years later, in 1981, he was again caught stealing, and sentenced to twelve years imprisonment for robbery, fraud, and involving teenagers in crime.[29] He and several accomplices were convicted of robbing apartments in upscale neighborhoods. He was pardoned in 1988, and was released in 1990.[28] In total, he spent nine years in detention.[7]
You of all people have always said (despite many here claiming otherwise) that someone shouldn't be judged necessarily for having a Jewish father, as you (correctly) pointed out that Jews are matriarchal and trace descent in a matrilineal fashion; Now, because you hate him, you suddenly are trying to poison the well and claim he is Jewish, despite no Jewish community in Russia nor Israel that would readily recognise him as such.
I'm not a fan of Prigozhin necessarily (indeed, I'm neutral on him), but it amuses me to no end just how much he has caused you to lose your shit, to which I say you need to regain your composure and keep it together man.
Arrow Cross
Member
Spanish warlord betrays republican government that is full of Communists and fellow travellers and which espouses Communist rhetorics: the international Right cheers him on and considers him the last great crusader.
Russian warlord betrays republican government that is full of Communists and fellow travellers and which espouses Communist rhetorics: the international Right considers him vile, dishonourable traitor filth of epic proportions.
Hitler was right: success alone dictates a historical person's perception.
Russian warlord betrays republican government that is full of Communists and fellow travellers and which espouses Communist rhetorics: the international Right considers him vile, dishonourable traitor filth of epic proportions.
Hitler was right: success alone dictates a historical person's perception.
Petr
Administrator
The famous Roman satirist Juvenal made this mocking commentary on how the praetorian prefect Sejanus, who just a moment ago was on the top of the world, came crashing down after his failed plot against emperor Tiberius - and how his former supporters rushed to disassociate themselves from him:
Juvenal (55–140) - The Satires: Satire X
Juvenal: The Satires: Satire X - in a new freely downloadable translation
www.poetryintranslation.com
Noosed by a rope, their statues are dragged to the ground, even
The wheels of their chariots are smashed, and broken to pieces
With axes, while the legs of their innocent horses are shattered.
Now the flames roar, the bellows hiss, and that head idolised
By the people glows in the furnace, flames crackle around huge
Sejanus; the face of a man who was number two in the world
Is converted to jugs and basins, turned to pots and frying pans.
Deck your houses with laurel, lead a great bull whitened with
Chalk up to the Capitol: come see Sejanus dragged along by
A hook, everyone’s celebrating! ‘Look at the lips, look at the
Face on that! You can take it from me, he was never a man
That I liked’ ‘But what was the crime that brought him down?’
Who informed, what’s the evidence, where are the witnesses?’
‘That’s all irrelevant; a lengthy and wordy letter arrived from
Capri.’ ‘That’s fine, answer enough.’ But what of the Roman
Mob? They follow Fortune, as always, and hate whoever she
Condemns. If Nortia, as the Etruscans called her, had favoured
Etruscan Sejanus; if the old Emperor had been surreptitiously
Smothered; that same crowd in a moment would have hailed
Their new Augustus. They shed their sense of responsibility
Long ago, when they lost their votes, and the bribes; the mob
That used to grant power, high office, the legions, everything,
Curtails its desires, and reveals its anxiety for two things only,
Bread and circuses. ‘I hear that many will perish.’ ‘No doubt,
The furnace is huge.’ ‘My friend Bruttidius Niger looked
Rather pale, when I met him in front of the altar of Mars;
I’m scared that Tiberius, like a defeated Ajax, will exact
Punishment for being so poorly protected. Let’s run swiftly
And trample on Caesar’s foe, where he lies on the riverbank,
Making sure our slaves see us, so they can’t deny it and drag
Their terrified masters to justice, with nooses round our necks.’
Those were the crowd’s secret murmurings regarding Sejanus.
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Petr
Administrator
Your comparison is rather inept: the Spanish Republican regime burned churches and killed priests, while Putin has built churches and had priests praying for him.
Macrobius
Megaphoron
Be careful, Petr.... 'Hisapanic' doesn't mean Spanish or Iberian anymore... it refers to about half the planet we live on.
@Dr. Alan James 2.0
But that Spanish TV series with Michelle Jenner was TOTALLY AWESOME... It's some Chick Flick Series like GOT but best viewed in bed with a woman who speaks the language. No, I didn't marry Hispanic... I married WV/SC but Caribbean isn't so far from the American South, and it's how we roll.
Should Whites rule the Caribbean or South America? I think maybe the answer is yes.
@Nikephoros II Phokas
piscamaniac
MAGA Republican
This whole incident should come as no surprise. Division is baked into the Russian system as Putin uses this to safeguard his power. This is why Rosgvardiya and wagner exist in the first place. Of course problems arrose when these entities were forced into cooperating. Putin needs the army now, hats why he allowed prigozhin to be sacrificed. I can even invision Prigozhin returning in some capacity; he never turned Putin directly.
piscamaniac
MAGA Republican
Blah, blah, blah, why start the "coup"? First off, we dont know this was a "coup". Why now? Because the deadline that would effectively end Progozhin's command over Wagner forces is up at the end of the month. The simplest explaination is he went looking for a brawl with his enemies in Rostov, only to find they had already fled in a cowardly manner.
Gawn Chippin
Arachnocronymic Metaphoron
It all appears to be a psychological operation to me, at this moment. Contemporary media technology makes it possible
Petr
Administrator
I believe this is called chutzpah:
www.rferl.org
In Address To Nation, Putin Says Wagner Soldiers Who Took Part In Revolt Can Join The Army Or Go To Belarus
In an address to the nation on June 26, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that Wagner mercenary fighters who took part in the revolt over the weekend can either join the Russian Army or go to Belarus.
Meanwhile, Prigozhin said earlier that the intent of his troops' march toward Moscow over the weekend was to highlight the incompetence of Russia's military leadership in its war against Ukraine and not to overthrow the Russian government in what is widely seen as the greatest challenge to Putin's 23 years of rule.
In his first public statement since abandoning the march just 200 kilometers from the Russian capital, Prigozhin continued to sound defiant in an 11-minute long audio clip on June 26, saying his progress was a "master class" on how Russia's army should have carried out its invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, noting multiple holes in military security that allowed his group to easily take control of cities as it proceeded toward Moscow.
Petr
Administrator
And one more thing... the following post is not inspired by Russophobia, but I could not help it coming to my mind when I followed this mess. In his famous 1943 "Posen Speech", Heinrich Himmler spoke with great contempt about the Slavs, often in the context of those turncoat Russians or Vlasovites who were serving the Germans.
All prejudices have some basis in reality - even such wild notions as that early Christians practised cannibalism, since they were behaving in a quite anti-social manner, not celebrating common feasts with their pagan neighbors, and that led to suspicions that such people were capable of anything.
Whereas other prejudices have even much stronger basis in reality - and the Prigozhin brouhaha has in all likelihood confirmed many Euros in their anti-Russian prejudices.
This commentary from Himmler is a good specimen of the kind of contempt that Europeans often felt towards Russians, thinking they had slavish, treacherous souls and were all too easy to bribe:
All prejudices have some basis in reality - even such wild notions as that early Christians practised cannibalism, since they were behaving in a quite anti-social manner, not celebrating common feasts with their pagan neighbors, and that led to suspicions that such people were capable of anything.
Whereas other prejudices have even much stronger basis in reality - and the Prigozhin brouhaha has in all likelihood confirmed many Euros in their anti-Russian prejudices.
This commentary from Himmler is a good specimen of the kind of contempt that Europeans often felt towards Russians, thinking they had slavish, treacherous souls and were all too easy to bribe:
Our comrade Fegelein once captured a Russian general like that. Look, they're cheap. They're Slavs. Full of humour, as Fegelein is, Fegelein told his staff: "We'll treat this one real good. We'll act like we're going to recognize him as a General. So, when he comes in, stand up, stand at attention, keep quiet, say 'General Sir, this' and 'General Sir, that', show him how much respect you have for him". Of course, this worked. You don't need to give a Russian general any political ideas, political ideals, or political plans for the future. You can get them cheaper than that, gentlemen. The Slavs are known for that.
...
Every Russian, every Slav, likes to hear himself talk. An old story. If you encourage them: "Please tell us, we place the highest value on your opinion. After all, we can only learn from you", then you won't find a single Russian commissar who won't fall for this; it's like tickling them with a peacock feather, just like this. Our Fegelein treated his general that way, and his general told us everything that such a brave, courageous commander really shouldn't ever tell at all, everything from his battery positions to his divisional marching plans and orders (he had a whole offensive army). He gave us everything ripe for the slaughter. It was clear in his mind that after all his blabbering — he was never asked anything directly, not with a single word — that he really couldn't go back to Little Father Stalin, even though he wore the Order of Stalin number seven hundred and something, a sort of Great Knight's Cross from over there, which he then gave Fegelein as a gift.
...
When Fegelein told me the story of the general, I said, "Sure, we can do everything. The man gets promised everything and he'll get it, too. He gets the pension of a German lieutenant general (he's a Russian lieutenant general). He gets good food, liquor, women."
That's really disgustingly cheap. A torpedo costs, what do I know, 10,000 marks, as soon as we fire it. The preliminary concentrated artillery fire for a single division or corps costs many hundreds of thousands. We don't even know whether the fire will be as effective in every case as when we buy just one cheap Russian general.
Of course, it doesn't go like that formally; you don't say, "You get 100,000 marks down, now betray everything to us". Of course, he won't do it. Comrade Slav has a few points of honour here. You have to go about it differently. Let's figure it out. How much pension does he get? 1,500 marks a month, that's 18,000 marks a year. Let him live 10 years, that's 180,000 marks. Miscellaneous expenditure is 20,000 marks. That's 200,000 marks total. It's really cheap if you get a Russian offensive army for it. You can do that with every Russian general, every one. We really shouldn't take them so seriously.
...
Now, back to the Slavs! I consider it necessary to speak to each other about this once again. Whether it's Peter the Great or the late Czars, whether it's Lenin or Stalin, they know their own people. They are perfectly well aware that the concepts of "loyalty", "never betraying", "never conspiring", have no place in the Russian vocabulary.
...
If we use the Russians, then they must be mixed with Germans in a ratio of 1:2 to 1:3. The best thing is to use individual Russians; then you can drive with them in a tank. One Russian with 2 or 3 Germans in a tank, magnificent, nothing wrong. But you must never let one Russian meet other tank-driving Russians, otherwise the boys will conspire. But if you wish to have Russian-only companies for some reason, then be careful, gentlemen — and that is not just a thought, gentlemen, that is an order, gentlemen — they must have their informer apparatus, their NKVD, in this company.
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Gawn Chippin
Arachnocronymic Metaphoron
I'm sure that Himmler knew that their motive was based on allying with the Germans to overthrow Communism. Who in their right mind would otherwise believe that Slavs would endeavor for their own enslavement and imminent destruction?