What Exactly Happened on Holy Sabbath Day
- Thread starter Macrobius
- Start date
clefty
Phoron
So jokes eh?...
www.huffpost.com
"Hell, then, is not primarily a place where God sends people in his wrath, or where God displays anger, but rather, it is the love of God, experienced by one who is not in communion with him. The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it through communion in the body of Christ, but bottomless despair and suffering to the person who rejects it, and chooses to remain in communion with death."
good one...right?
Except:
Heb 12:29“For our God is a consuming fire.” again consuming...until nothing left...to DESTROY...and not to warm like a campfire the late night "communion with with death" for eternity...
Revelations 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ...fini...nothing left...
1 Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Revelations 21:4‘ He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Even the MEMORY of them will vanish:
Psalm 34:16
But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to wipe out all memory of them from the earth.
Psalm 109:15
May their sins always remain before the LORD, that He may cut off their memory from the earth.
Proverbs 10:7
The memory of the righteous is a blessing, but the name of the wicked will rot.
Already in the OT we see the pattern early on...of good and bad...life and death ...light AND darkness all from ONE source:
certainly in the darkness He named night in Genesis
but also
Exodus 10:21 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, a darkness to be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was pitch darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another, nor did anyone rise from his place for three days, but all the people of Israel had light where they lived.
Exodus 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
Night time in the desert is not that dark...especially since it was only a few days since the FULL MOON of the Passover...
So we see He DOES blind...make dark...and more...
But making certain darkness is easy.
Look at this creation:
The world of nature, cut off from the source of life, is a dying world. For one who thinks food in itself is the source of life, eating is communion with the dying world, it is communion with death. Food itself is dead, it is life that has died and it must be kept in refrigerators like a corpse.
"It is possible to envision death, defined in this way, as at least tolerable, but if we posit the reality of redemption, that is, from a certain perspective, the added imposition of the presence of infinite and divine personality figuratively signified by fire, death then takes on a further dimension. Death doesn't dissolve away into nothingness, but energized by the presence of creative, personal and divine love, it becomes a separation fixed in an eternal position. Death is transmuted into bitter torment and despair."ibid
Funny stuff right?...I mean it is from the HuffPost
Hell And God's Love: An Alternative, Orthodox View
The same fire, the love of God, that ignites in the hearts of the faithful transmutes in the experience of those who reject it into the fire of hell; it purifies the former, but burns the latter.
"Hell, then, is not primarily a place where God sends people in his wrath, or where God displays anger, but rather, it is the love of God, experienced by one who is not in communion with him. The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it through communion in the body of Christ, but bottomless despair and suffering to the person who rejects it, and chooses to remain in communion with death."
good one...right?
Except:
Heb 12:29“For our God is a consuming fire.” again consuming...until nothing left...to DESTROY...and not to warm like a campfire the late night "communion with with death" for eternity...
Revelations 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." ...fini...nothing left...
1 Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Revelations 21:4‘ He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the former things have passed away.”
Even the MEMORY of them will vanish:
Psalm 34:16
But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil, to wipe out all memory of them from the earth.
Psalm 109:15
May their sins always remain before the LORD, that He may cut off their memory from the earth.
Proverbs 10:7
The memory of the righteous is a blessing, but the name of the wicked will rot.
Already in the OT we see the pattern early on...of good and bad...life and death ...light AND darkness all from ONE source:
certainly in the darkness He named night in Genesis
but also
Exodus 10:21 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Stretch out your hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, a darkness to be felt.” 22 So Moses stretched out his hand toward heaven, and there was pitch darkness in all the land of Egypt three days. 23 They did not see one another, nor did anyone rise from his place for three days, but all the people of Israel had light where they lived.
Exodus 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
Night time in the desert is not that dark...especially since it was only a few days since the FULL MOON of the Passover...
So we see He DOES blind...make dark...and more...
But making certain darkness is easy.
Look at this creation:
The world of nature, cut off from the source of life, is a dying world. For one who thinks food in itself is the source of life, eating is communion with the dying world, it is communion with death. Food itself is dead, it is life that has died and it must be kept in refrigerators like a corpse.
"It is possible to envision death, defined in this way, as at least tolerable, but if we posit the reality of redemption, that is, from a certain perspective, the added imposition of the presence of infinite and divine personality figuratively signified by fire, death then takes on a further dimension. Death doesn't dissolve away into nothingness, but energized by the presence of creative, personal and divine love, it becomes a separation fixed in an eternal position. Death is transmuted into bitter torment and despair."ibid
Funny stuff right?...I mean it is from the HuffPost
Macrobius
Megaphoron
Not sure that fellow really 'speaks' for Orthodoxy. Aside from a few nice quotes from saints, plenty of 'tells'.
I doubt you will be able to source 'The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it'
using, say, quotations from the Hesychast controversies. Most Western Christians are simply ignorant of these, or just assume the Catholics were right because it is more in accord with Catholicism and Protestantism.
The theology involved does, in a certain sense, form the bone of contention here being raised. Howev er, I don't think a random 'author/writer' at the HuffPo blog is the Philokalia.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
I doubt you will be able to source 'The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it'
using, say, quotations from the Hesychast controversies. Most Western Christians are simply ignorant of these, or just assume the Catholics were right because it is more in accord with Catholicism and Protestantism.
The theology involved does, in a certain sense, form the bone of contention here being raised. Howev er, I don't think a random 'author/writer' at the HuffPo blog is the Philokalia.
Palamism - Wikipedia
Hesychast controversy - Wikipedia
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clefty
Phoron
oh HEY...there's life here after all...Not sure that fellow really 'speaks' for Orthodoxy. Aside from a few nice quotes from saints, plenty of 'tells'.
I doubt you will be able to source 'The figurative, spiritual fire of God's love is transcendent joy to the person purified and transfigured by it'
using, say, quotations from the Hesychast controversies. Most Western Christians are simply ignorant of these, or just assume the Catholics were right because it is more in accord with Catholicism and Protestantism.
The theology involved does, in a certain sense, the bone of contention here being raised. Howev er, I don't think a random 'author/writer' at the HuffPo blog is the Philokalia.
Palamism - Wikipedia
Hesychast controversy - Wikipedia
yeah yeah that fellow dont "speaks for Orthodoxy" at all I am sure...glad you quickly dumped more and improved stuff...
will google more myself...and respond...
EO being always so more imaginative and poetic...forgot how different it is from the hamfisting Protestants and inquisitional Catholic
Macrobius
Megaphoron
lol I've not been online as much this week as previously -- partly because I'm spending some of my 'free time' writing a book.
I do try to get around to things eventually. Anyway, there is a deep controversy over whether God's Grace is 'created' (that was the Roman Catholic position), or 'uncreated' -- which can only mean God Himself or his 'Energies' (Energy being the Aristotelian word for 'activity' ... everyone agrees that God 'does things').
And I don't think anyone holds that 'God doing things' is different from God, as if He had to first create his own activities, like an animatronic robot bird..... FIAT... and then let it kick about doing what He wanted. Maybe the Pope wants to sell you a toy bird to go with the indulgence? Dunno.
Anyway: the controversy is over 'Is God's Grace a Creature?' Since *all* Christians believe that God's Grace is necessary to an individual's Salvation, this ends up being of the essence for the doctrines of Gehenna and Hades.
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clefty
Phoron
say wut? I thought we were trying to answer "where did Christ go" on that Sabbath prior First Fruits...besides lay in a tomb "resting" and then being "refreshed"
all this other stuff you dumping here is WAY ABOVE my pay grade and vocabulary...adding yet another "grace person" when there are only TWO seats on the throne up there
was just simply focused on when we die...nothing...until resurrection day...final judgement and its subsequent second death...or halleluYah life with Him eating from the Tree of Life with differing fruit each month...
and no everlasting torment of constantly rejecting now a "grace person" too...
all the best on that book
clefty
Phoron
Out of the 4 views provided
I'd pick #2...even though it is not the most popular...
I think when He said it was "Good" He knew He would one day curse it...and in doing that...He would finally destroy it...for no longer being the GOOD He deemed it as originally...
His kingdom has no place for NOT good...even a memory of it...
Macrobius
Megaphoron
From a book worth reading, Fr. Seraphim Rose's _Nihilism_
NIHILISM by Eugene Rose
An analysis of nihilism, its various stages, theology, and program of destruction.
web.archive.org
More by the late Fr. Rose at _Death to The World_: http://www.desertwisdom.org/dttw/
On Soviet Russia (writing, I believe, in the late 80s):
And, on a closely related topic, the Six Days of Creation:
http://creatio.orthodoxy.ru/english/rose_genesis/chapter1.html [ not all chapters present, but a few more are via link at bottom of page ]
Creatio. English pages.
creatio.orthodoxy.ru
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clefty
Phoron
So does His Grace permit existence in eternal torment and torture?
Not finding it in Scripture there are those quite clever and wise to employing other means to develop the essence for the doctrines of Gehenna and Hades.
"Max Harris argues that Ignatius’s contemplative approach to scripture in the Spiritual Exercises signifies a “theatrical hermeneutics” presaging Stanislavski (1990, 27). Long before Stanislavski, Ignatius of Loyola introduced a sort of “magic if” of the imagination in the Spiritual Exercises. Indeed, the Exercises rely upon sense memory and imagination. For example, on the first day of the second week, one is required to use affective memory, sense memory, and imagination to conceive of one’s self as present at the Nativity:
The italicized section reflects Ignatius’s approach: that the person undergoing the exercises assumes the role of a slave present at the birth of Jesus, a character not mentioned in scripture at all. Characteristics, action, and motivation are given and the practitioner uses his imagination to develop that role in order to better understand Christ.
Similarly, the fifth exercise of the first week is to imagine one’s self in hell. As with Stanislavski, one uses one’s imagination to fully perceive using all the senses to create the given circumstances:
In addition to sensually imagining the circumstances of hell, one then imagines the character of Satan. In short, the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises are a form of acting exercise in which one imagines oneself as a character in various biblical situations and explores what it means, physically, emotionally, and (most important) spiritually to experience it."
An appeal to the senses merely confirms the idolatry...
We are to worship Him (the Consuming Fire Spirit) in Spirit and Truth...not with man made pretty things and imaginings...
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Lord Osmund de Ixabert
I X A B E R T.com
Pray, permit me to recommend the acquisition of the skill of perusing multiple lines of text. I had the foresight to contemplate and counter the aforementioned contention, taking into account the verbatim words that you have posited, in the precise post to which you've retorted:
- I have yet to come across a passage in the Bible in which Jesus spoke of such a thing, unless you are referring to the passages in which the word for unquenchable is mistranslated as 'everlasting' or 'eternal'; yet the same book speaks of the "everlasting fire" that was sent as punishment to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah--and adds that said fire was later extinguished. So it is clear that the word for 'eternal' or 'everlasting' as used in the Bible does not mean what many people assume it means.
- My argument is not for denying any particular doctrine about Hell - were I desirous of making such an argument, I would appeal to certain metaphysical and theological principles of an axiomatic nature, rather than the authority of the Bible; for as regards the duration of the punishment (of hell, i.e.), the Bible does not take an explicit stance one way or the other, though it is evident from a great many OT passages that a finite conception of hell is presupposed throughout all the books of the Bible that make allusion thereto. A viewpoint that is in agreement with Judaism, ancient and modern; for the Jews do not subscribe to the Christian concept of eternal damnation in hell. They regard it as a finite place with a physical location on earth. The same view is also in perfect accord with the linguistic evidences, taking into account the history and meaning of the term 'Hades' and the equivalent Hebraic terms (for there are several of them in the Hebrew language, each having very different meanings, yet all of them rather misleadingly translated into English by the same word 'hell').
- So do not construe my argument as a denial of the doctrine of an eternal hell. My argument is rather a justification for doubting that Jesus taught this particular doctrine about Hell, to wit, that it is a place of never-ending torment and suffering, whereto people are sent by Deity as a punishment for the transgressions they committed in this world. There is simply no evidence of Jesus teaching any such doctrine to anyone; nor is there any rational ground for supposing that he taught it by way of implication; for the meanings of the corresponding terms in Aramaic and Hebrew, as well as the Hellenistic Greek and Hebraic mythological conceptionals of hell, did not originate in any doctrine of eternal damnation, nor had they any particular association therewith; on the contrary for both the hebrews and the greeks, hell was thougt to have a physical location and to be of finite duration.
- The doctrine of an eternal hell as we now understand it was for most part a later Roman Catholic formulation;--seemingly based on a mistranslation of the Hebrew word for unquenchable as as "everlasting". It was a quite foreign conception to christians, at any rate for the first couple of hundred years of their existence.
- Like the Celtic pagan doctrine of purgatory, the concept of an eternal hell is of extrabiblical origin; which is not an argument against the potential truth of that doctrine; for it is my opinion that Purgatory, for instance, as one of several doctrines that the pagans got right, ; and so it was a wise decision on the part of the Roman Catholic Church to incorporate such pagan ideas into its body of thought. Unfortunately for Christendom, many falsehoods of pagan origin also became the official doctrine of christianity, along with the pagan truths--in both cases due to the same pagan influences, rather than any Biblical influences.
- Moreover, the foreformentioned conception of hell is obviously not based on the Greek notion of Hades; for the Greeks never conceived of Hades as a place to which men are sent as a punishment for their sins, nor indeed was it ever considered a place of pure suffering, nor the sole place to which a person might be sent after death as a punishment; nor was it considered everlasting. Hades was merely a subterraneous realm, and had no especial association with punishment, damnation, the devil, or evil.
- Elsewise how is it that Persephone, daughter of Demeter the earth-goddess, could leave Hades six months of every year, and tho' she would fain have spent all her time upon the earth she nonetheless found in the infernal realm many things that brought her joy and happiness, such as to extinguish any torment or suffering to which she might otherwise've been inclined. Such conception of Hell or Hades does but further support my argument. Another linguistic consideration that accords with my point of view is, of course, the origin and etymological meaning of the English word 'hell', which was thought a fit translation of the equivalent hebraic and greek notions.
Lord Osmund de Ixabert
I X A B E R T.com
So next time you are moved to bite at my ankles, rather than reading only the first couple of lines, I implore you to peruse with due diligence the text to which you are responding.
And if perchaunce this task should prove too daunting, I would suggest that perhaps a brief respite from libations may be in order.
And if perchaunce this task should prove too daunting, I would suggest that perhaps a brief respite from libations may be in order.
clefty
Phoron
1 John 2:24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.
yes the promise He made...on condition...still to come...no one is already born with it...
so popular and yet..."for Yah so loved the world... that whosoever believeth shall inherit eternal life"
See? …”shall inherit” as we don’t already have it…but are given it…IF we believeth
...at the resurrection we PUT ON the heavenly dwelling Paul told the Corinthians...For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality...
fear the One that can destroy the soul...and will one day...
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clefty
Phoron
…knowing the importance of three to the Church's tradition
here’s a third video from this site::
Indeed He is not the God of the dead but of the living...
As the dead have no god…as they know nothing Eccl 9:5...and can not worship Psalms 115:17…
To have souls eternally tormented consciously means the dead do have a God...
here’s a third video from this site::
Indeed He is not the God of the dead but of the living...
As the dead have no god…as they know nothing Eccl 9:5...and can not worship Psalms 115:17…
To have souls eternally tormented consciously means the dead do have a God...