"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything..."

[clefty]

​

Icons Are Not Idols​

"Explaining iconography to someone who doesn’t pray with icons can be a little daunting. For us Orthodox, it’s as natural and normal as reading the Gospel, and we all sort of instinctively know that we’re not worshiping the icons. So what does the Bible say about images, and why do we have icons?"

Icons Are Not Idols | Orthodox Christian Fellowship

www.ocf.net

From the article:

1. The Incarnation is a game-changer. Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted.
2. Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God.
3. Worship and veneration are not the same. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country).
4. God instructed Moses to create images. Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

And now just some quick thoughts...

1. The Incarnation is a game-changer.

Assuming the game (His perfect immutable Law) needed changing Who allowed this? Is it Christ's fault for becoming incarnate that we feel we can change His Law?

Just as Eve decided for herself the fruit was allowed?

Did He teach this? Demonstrate the same? Knowing how comforting encouraging and useful a visible teaching aid is you would think our Creator would have poised for a Greek artist to render a statue.

Becoming incarnate means He is possible to render and depict but not necessarily that He should be.

Alas this is not the only commandment which is thought changed by His becoming flesh.

Ironically the joos were the first to witness He would change the customs Moses handed down. In Acts 6:13-14 Luke writes of them claiming "this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us." Luke of course was clear to call them FALSE witnesses as this was NOT the case.

2. Icons depict real people.

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;" is what is written. Real people (who are dead btw) which the icons depict are under this category of what NOT to make a similitude of and not just "fantastical creatures".

Obviously 7 headed monsters aren't real and wouldn't likely poise for a portrait anyways. (Probably wouldn't be omnipotent to hear all prayers to it either.) But yes there is no end to what we could imagine to distract ourselves from Him and from His Way.

We are to focus and discipline ourselves to His Word and His teachings and His living example. We are "to hear the Word and do it" and not see it with the aid of "set apart" images aiding our concentration.

No need for worship with works by human hands...

3. Worship and veneration are not the same.

Perhaps, but the verse doesn't even specify worship but merely "bow down" to any image made.

5G3756You shall notG4352do obeisanceG1473to them,G3762.1norG3000shall you serveG1473to them

H3808לאThou shalt notH7812תשׁתחוהbow down thyselfH3808להם ולאto them, norH5647תעבדםserveH3588כיthem:

What is often missed is that we are not to serve these images made. Which in Hebrew is "abad" https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5647.htm

Exodus 13:5 has a form of this verb as "to observe" as in a calendar date, here specifically the Passover date. I am pretty sure all these images have feast days by which they are celebrated and served. With festivities parades and good food I am sure.

These icons are also served with prominent displays, sheltered and protected in temples and shrines, nicely lit with candles, sweet smelling incense burnt, specific songs and prayers...


4. God instructed Moses to create images.

Yeah but those instructions were just for "da joos" right? RIGHT? I mean we are NOT to joodaize yes? NOT do as the joos did? Like not eat pork?

Kidding aside, yes God instructed these images but then NOT again. In fact even the second temple didn't have the icons the first one did. After all this time archaeology has not uncovered "Cherubim for the home and office" and no "bronze snake healing poles" because it was understood He didn't abrogate His own Law.

And how were these images used in worship? For over 4 centuries only ONE man saw the Cherubim but ONCE a year. Anyone else would be killed if they looked at the ark...imagine kissing it.

Odd ikon that. Even odder that He would destroy His own Law so quickly. The second commandment enforces the first much like the second amendment to the US Constitution enforces the first.

And oh yes the bronze serpent. People were healed looking at it as He instructed but not by the bronze shaped into a snake itself but by His Spirit.

And when His Spirit departed this image the people still insisted to burn incense to it. So it was destroyed as an idol. Interesting to note that they were just burning incense to it...Hezekiah made no mention of joos merely bowing to it, praying to it, or even worshipping it...

Hezekiah made no room for "But but but we aren't worshiping IT... just the One it represents...Who even instructed us to make it!"

Finally even the empty second temple was destroyed.

Maybe because we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth?

But tradition argues these "one-offs" He instructed abrogated His prior commandment to not make images? As He IS an author of confusion?

He said not to murder and not to steal and yet had them go to war and plunder. Could Israel now wage war and steal whenever they wanted?

God also told a spirit to go and lie 1 Kings 22:22 So we CAN bare false witness?

Hosea was instructed to marry a prostitute...so much for the marriage bed...hello perversions!

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother"...ok no need to honor father and mother

"I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 So I guess we can too...I mean since God went against what He previously said...

Since God did...so can I..."I would be like the Most High"


That is the argument right? "Yes He commanded da joos not to make images... but a few chapters later God instructed images to be made...so now we can too"

I think we should read the original warning again that Eve "saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom"...

and look at us now...

...Eve should have realized that just because the fruit was made incarnate and COULD be eaten...does not mean it SHOULD be eaten...

 

[piscamaniac]

One off? What are you talking about? When it's more than just one it ceases to be a one off. It adds up to thousands and thousands of what you call one offs when you factor in all the death penalties prescribed in the bible for various crimes. Not that "one off" would help you any way. Where in the bible does it state that these are exceptions? In the case of murder, I note, you are using the king James wording kill; pretty odd, considering you are one of those sacred name hebrew obsessed types. No, your conclusions are all bullshit. These arent exceptions, but are just another part of the context surrounding the commandments that reveal their meaning.

 

[White Swan]

​

Icons Are Not Idols​

"Explaining iconography to someone who doesn’t pray with icons can be a little daunting. For us Orthodox, it’s as natural and normal as reading the Gospel, and we all sort of instinctively know that we’re not worshiping the icons. So what does the Bible say about images, and why do we have icons?"

Icons Are Not Idols | Orthodox Christian Fellowship

www.ocf.net

From the article:

1. The Incarnation is a game-changer. Christ made visible the invisible God, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted.
2. Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating fantastical creatures that replace the true God. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true God.
3. Worship and veneration are not the same. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing God with a created thing (or ideology or passion). Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator (sort of like saluting to a soldier is an act of respect and honor that shows your loyalty to your country).
4. God instructed Moses to create images. Just in case anyone thought God’s commandment to Moses excluded all visual images of anything as idols, check out Exodus 36:35-37:9 where, per the instructions of God, Moses has images of cherubim embroidered into the curtains of the tabernacle and statues of the same cast for the Ark of the Covenant.

And now just some quick thoughts...

1. The Incarnation is a game-changer.

Assuming the game (His perfect immutable Law) needed changing Who allowed this? Is it Christ's fault for becoming incarnate that we feel we can change His Law?

Just as Eve decided for herself the fruit was allowed? Did He teach this? Demonstrate the same? Knowing how comforting encouraging and useful a visible teaching aid is you would think our Creator would have poised for a Greek artist to render a statue.

Becoming incarnate means He is possible to render and depict but not necessarily that He should be.

Alas this is not the only commandment thought changed by His becoming flesh. Ironically the joos were the first to witness He would change the customs Moses handed down. In Acts 613-14 Luke writes of them claiming "this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us." Luke of course was clear to call them FALSE witnesses as this was NOT the case.

2. Icons depict real people.

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;" is what is written. Real people (who are dead btw) which the icons depict are under this category of what NOT to make a similitude of and not just "fantastical creatures".

Obviously 7 headed monsters aren't real and wouldn't likely poise for a portrait anyways. (Probably wouldn't be omnipotent to hear all prayers to it either.) But yes there is no end to what we could imagine to distract ourselves from Him and from His Way.

We are to focus and discipline ourselves to His Word and His teachings and His living example. We are "to hear the Word and do it" and not see it with the aid of "set apart" images aiding our concentration.

No need for worship with works by human hands...

3. Worship and veneration are not the same.

Perhaps, but the verse doesn't even specify worship but merely "bow down" to any image made.

5G3756You shall notG4352do obeisanceG1473to them,G3762.1norG3000shall you serveG1473to them

H3808לאThou shalt notH7812תשׁתחוהbow down thyselfH3808להם ולאto them, norH5647תעבדםserveH3588כיthem:

What is often missed is that we are not to serve these images made. Which in Hebrew is "abad" https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5647.htm

Exodus 13:5 has a form of this verb as "to observe" as in a calendar date, here specifically the Passover date. I am pretty sure all these images have feast days by which they are celebrated and served. With festivities parades and good food I am sure.

These icons are also served with prominent displays, sheltered and protected in temples and shrines, nicely lit with candles, sweet smelling incense burnt, specific songs and prayers...


4. God instructed Moses to create images.

Yeah but those instructions were just for "da joos" right? RIGHT? I mean we are NOT to joodaize yes? NOT do as the joos did? Like not eat pork?

Kidding aside, yes God instructed these images but then NOT again. In fact even the second temple didn't have the icons the first one did. After all this time archaeology has not uncovered "Cherubim for the home and office" and no "bronze snake healing poles" because it was understood He didn't abrogate His own Law.

And how were these images used in worship? For over 4 centuries only ONE man saw the Cherubim but ONCE a year. Anyone else would be killed if they looked at the ark...imagine kissing it.

Odd ikon that. Even odder that He would destroy His own Law so quickly. The second commandment enforces the first much like the second amendment to the US Constitution enforces the first.

And oh yes the bronze serpent. People were healed looking at it as He instructed but not by the bronze shaped into a snake itself but by His Spirit.

And when His Spirit departed this image the people still insisted to burn incense to it. So it was destroyed as an idol. Interesting to note that they were just burning incense to it...Hezekiah made no mention of joos merely bowing to it, praying to it, or even worshipping it...

Hezekiah made no room for "But but but we aren't worshiping IT... just the One it represents...Who even instructed us to make it!"

Finally even the empty second temple was destroyed.

Maybe because we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth?

But tradition argues these "one-offs" He instructed abrogated His prior commandment to not make images? As He IS an author of confusion?

He said not to murder and not to steal and yet had them go to war and plunder. Could Israel now wage war and steal whenever they wanted?

God also told a spirit to go and lie 1 Kings 22:22 So we CAN bare false witness?

Hosea was instructed to marry a prostitute...so much for the marriage bed...hello perversions!

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother"...ok no need to honor father and mother

"I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things." Isaiah 45:7 So I guess we can too...I mean since God went against what He previously said...

Since God did...so can I..."I would be like the Most High"


That is the argument right? "Yes He commanded da joos not to make images... but a few chapters later God instructed images to be made...so now we can too"

I think we should read the original warning again that Eve "saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom"...

and look at us now...

...Eve should have realized that just because the fruit was made incarnate and COULD be eaten...does not mean it SHOULD be eaten...

It seems that an example of trying to use an icon was presented by the Lord to make it all the more clear that we are unable to keep from worshipping it. Similarly to how polygamy was always used as an example of how to bring trouble to your house. (To bring even more controversy to the thread lol). Not condoned, but allowed for a purpose, the main purpose being to show our faults to us clearly so that we can then begin to understand, just as one must see a problem before being able to solve it.

 

[clefty]

One off? What are you talking about?

The instructions to Moses to make images...specifically the bronze snake and the Tabernacle/Temple.

When it's more than just one it ceases to be a one off.

right...is why never again were bronze serpents made. No industry or mass production of "bronze serpents for the home and office". lol

And the one that was made had to be destroyed merely because incense was burned "to it"...again Hezekiah made no mention of people bowing to it, praying to it, or worshiping it...merely that incense was burnt to it...

as for the Temple...for starters David wanted it embarrassed his own house was nicer than his God's...

Exodus 31:1 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 to design artistic works, to work in gold, in silver, in bronze, 5 in cutting jewels for setting, in carving wood, and to work in all manner of workmanship.

And despite a joo given such skill and talent there are no records of "Cherubims for the home and office". In fact Israel constantly fell into idolatry with OTHER gods depicted. Maybe if they could have only entered the Holy of Holies and kissed the Cherubim? Or better yet...maybe If they had been allowed to have "Cherubims for the home and office...order now and a get free bronze snake necklace" they would have been more faithful?

It adds up to thousands and thousands of what you call one offs when you factor in all the death penalties prescribed in the bible for various crimes. Not that "one off" would help you any way.

Are we even talking about images being made? But yeah there was Uzzah who should have known better than to touch the ark to stabilize it. Imagine being killed for "just trying to help". Seriously odd ikon there that is...at least he didn't try to kiss it.

Where in the bible does it state that these are exceptions?

Well the fact that the ONE bronze serpent was destroyed during a reform and the tabernacle was not reproduced throughout the tribes for the sake of convenience of worship. In fact Israel went into civil war because "da joo" began to charge too steep a "temple tax" to worship at Jerusalem so the tribes thought to worship Him at constructed high places at home. That abomination however was the last and Israel disappeared and "da joos" went into exile.

In the case murder, I note, you are using the king James wording kill; pretty odd, considering you are one of those sacred name hebrew obsessed types.

...are we even reading this thread?

No, your conclusions are all bullshit. These arent exceptions, but are just another part of the context surrounding the commandments that reveal their meaning.

I have shown they are exceptions as even the second temple which had NO Cherubim was finally destroyed as it too became an idol. As His Spirit had certainly left it long ago and it merely caused such continued distractions from Him and His ways.

And yet for centuries now without their ikons "da joos" continue to worship...

...but still not in Spirit and in Truth.

Sadly "da joo" himself is idolized and given power...even to the point that V2 allowed "da joo" their "own way" and no need for conversion... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...uld-fight-anti-semitism-idUSKBN0TT1BK20151210

and such other imagined abominations...

 

[clefty]

It seems that an example of trying to use an icon was presented by the Lord to make it all the more clear that we are unable to keep from worshipping it.

Oh? He presented? When did He do that, where, how so?

But Deuteronomy 4:11 "Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female," BECAUSE it's then possible to bowing...and adoration...and obeisance...and serving...and yes, yes not the image itself but the One/ones it portrays

Similarly to how polygamy was always used as an example of how to bring trouble to your house. (To bring even more controversy to the thread lol). Not condoned, but allowed for a purpose, the main purpose being to show our faults to us clearly so that we can then begin to understand, just as one must see a problem before being able to solve it.

lol...

Yes idolatry is adultery...trouble...and a defilement of a singular "marriage bed" that of a man and a woman...doesn't help He is Jealous...

We can't serve two masters after all...

And now the abominations include men imagining they are women...former slaves idolizing themselves as kangs...Fauci counterfeiting a health provider...

 

[Rawhide "Doug" Kobayashi]

This is all a moot point, considering that these commandments were only ever put in place for God's Chosen, the Biblical Hebrews; and any prohibition of idolatry thereof does not apply to anyone outside that narrow context. Also, one must consider this to be a completely separate commandment from the act of worshipping idols, which no one actually ever does.

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;"

The gods of Hinduism don't exist in the 'heavens above' or any other physical realm within this earth, but rather in an abstract space (loka) circumferencing Mount Meru (which many texts like the Surya Siddhanta attempt to identify, but the dimensions of Mt Meru in the more ancient scriptures are impossibly large, with the sun and the planets revolving around the sun themselves revolving around Meru) and as such this rule once again does not apply when read using the context of sola scriptura, as the 'heavens above' are not merely above.

 

[clefty]

Let’s pause for a break:

To Use Or Not To Use: The Question For Hindu Images And The West

We understand that what may be offensive to one Hindu is not offensive to another. But at least for what appears to many to be "misuses", Hindus should and must assert the right to rule-making that others have asserted before us.

www.huffpost.com

 

[piscamaniac]

The instructions to Moses to make images...specifically the bronze snake and the Tabernacle/Temple.

Do you even understand what your thread is about? Whether a commandment was broken is the important part. Several objects were fashioned by God's instruction, that is not a one off.

And the one that was made had to be destroyed merely because incense was burned "to it"...again Hezekiah made no mention of people bowing to it, praying to it, or worshiping it...merely that incense was burnt to it...

Hezekiah isnt God. Did God tell him to do this in the bible?

...are we even reading this thread?

Not so patronising. I will remind you that YOU brought up ONE OFFS and OTHER COMMANDEMENTS, so we shall be exploring these here. According to your stupid interpretations of the commandments there would be thousands of these one offs, an absurd suggestion.

"I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil:

Once again this is a poor translation from the king james bible. God didn't create evil. Disaster is a better translation here. This cuts to the heart of your problem. You seem to think God does evil and instructs others to do evil; an example being your attributing Micaiah's story about what God said to God's own words -this is blasphemy. You don't understand God at all, it follows that you reject the trinity and the instructions of His Church for your own EXTRA BIBLICAL interpretations of Holy scripture. All you have shown in this thread is that you are a false prophet, blasphemer and heretic, no better than the scribes condemned by Jesus himself.

 

[clefty]

This is all a moot point,

The current meanings of moot and moot point are, in a way, the opposite of their original meanings. The word "moot" dates back to medieval England. Moots (or “meets”) were councils or assemblies where governments debated political issues of the day.

The nation was divided into “hundreds” (juridical areas), all of which had an assembly of the people known as “Hundred Moots.” In British English, moot would mean to raise a point believed to be worth debating. https://www.poised.com/blog/moot-point

hope you stick around...

it might not matter to you...but it certainly matters to those that claim they follow Jesus...you know...like those pesky evangelicals etc et al...

considering that these commandments were only ever put in place for God's Chosen,

He chose Israel only because they were the literal seeds of their fathers whom He swore a covenant too...not for anything they did...

“Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name," Ezekiel 36:22 ...

So because of a promise to Abraham...He remembered His covenant with Abraham and heard their groans in Egypt...

Cuz if He failed His own covenant to Abraham that would cast shade on His Name...

but yes "da joos" like to claim they are chosen..."for hardship and genocide" they joke even...

the Biblical Hebrews;

is why you didn't say "da joos"?...

as it was Israel and by that all twelve tribes from one man named Jacob who was renamed by God... Israel...da joos come from 1/12 of those siblings...

and "the Hebrews" is still argued now as a variation of Habiru or "displaced persons" a "social category that evolved into an ethnic one." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

And at Sinai where these 10 qualifications were listed for ANY who wished to be included as His people, there were already many in this "ekklesia in the wilderness" that displaced themselves from Egypt and its ways...choosen rather to follow Him into the wilderness rather than continue to serve images in Egypt...errr the gods depicted in Egypt

Oh and BTW...These obedient ones choosing to follow Him are also the "WHOSOEVER believeth shall inherit" found in the NT...same citizens of the same kingdom.

and any prohibition of idolatry thereof does not apply to anyone outside that narrow context.

right...as I said...this is a 1/10 description of what life is like where "I AM"

and is part of the conditions within His kingdom which applies to only those that choose to be His people...become adopted as its citizen...by their faith...and obedience

Also, one must consider this to be a completely separate commandment from the act of worshipping idols,

Right! Exactly!...this "commandment" deals with:

1. "make no graven (carved, 3D) image"...which some would argue the Hebrew here specifies as "idol"

2. "(make no) similitude (or likeness, 2D ) of ANYTHING"...to confirm the prior prohibition against images for those too clever or reprobate to CHOOSE to understand the prior

3. do not "bow down"...some translate "make obeisance"...interesting word with roots to "obey"

4. do not serve them...which in Exodus 13:5 a form of this verb in Hebrew includes "observe" as in "observe the Passover feast day"...which those that claim to follow Him observe feast days which are served to those depicted in the images made...

Nothing there about worshiping...

Since He is Spirit and HAS NO FORM...so don't make images of anything...or do these actions to images already made...

And of course don't claim doing either as worship TO HIM...and certainly do not do either as worship to another...but NOT AT ALL...not even as veneration or obeisance to Him or any other...

Is why there are no "fiery bush"..."bronze serpents"..."cherubim"...souvenirs even...

It's a matter of translation from Biblical Hebrew...and Hebrew is not too tense...lol...

"The ancient Hebrews never thought of an action as past, present, or future, but simply as perfect, i.e. complete, or imperfect, i.e. as in course of development. https://biblicalhebrew.org/hebrew-tenses.aspx

The 10 commandments are also known as the 10 words or the 10 descriptions...and the weak translation of "thou shalt not" or "thou shalt" was certainly NOT predictive or prophetic as those who promised "I do" at the Sinai wedding ceremony to Him certainly did NOT obey the qualifications of "His Chosen"

A better translation would be "thou dost" (do or not do) X Y Z.

Young's Literal Translation
Exodus 20: 4Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which is in the heavens above, or which is in the earth beneath, or which is in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou dost not bow thyself to them, nor serve them: for I, Jehovah thy God, am a zealous God, charging iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third generation, and on the fourth, of those hating Me,

and IS WHY you are a citizen of His Kingdom...if you choose

did you notice WHY we dost not?...cuz He is jealous...and will punish 3-4 generations...the ONLY one of the 10 that goes into these details...this 2nd Word of 10 seems to be very important...

It's necessarily repeated often for even greater clarity... which I won't bring up at this time...

The gods of Hinduism

...His people DOST NOT make images of them...certainly not do like the other nations around them do... and worship/serve any images made...

...and DOST NOT worship them WITHOUT images either...where ever these gods of other nations are...

don't exist in the 'heavens above' or any other physical realm within this earth, but rather in an abstract space (loka) circumferencing Mount Meru (which many texts like the Surya Siddhanta attempt to identify, but the dimensions of Mt Meru in the more ancient scriptures are impossibly large, with the sun and the planets revolving around the sun themselves revolving around Meru) and as such this rule once again does not apply when read using the context of sola scriptura, as the 'heavens above' are not merely above.

ummm...ok...but since the sun and planets don't revolve within this earth...or on it...but in the heavens above...

His people dost not make images of Mt Meru either...knowing He is Jealous of people choosing to serve somebody else...and then still claiming to be "the Chosen Ones"...

 

[clefty]

Wow…sorry for long post

Maybe another break?

https://www.hinduwebsite.com/idols.asp

"An idol or an image is a living embodiment (arca) of God. It is not a lifeless form. Life is poured into every image or idol when it is reverentially worshipped with devotion. Devotion has such power. According to our Puranas, with devotion you can awaken the divine power which is hidden in any object. By overcoming the duality of the subject and the object or the knower and the known you can experience oneness with the divinity who is present in all things."

Yes, Hindus are idol worshippers: But what’s wrong with that?

The projection that the worship of the idol by Hindus is wrong has been going on for more than a couple of centuries

www.firstpost.com

 

[Dr. Alan James 2.0]

Clefty is doing a whole lotta copy pasting and googling. This is the most retarded shit I've ever read. Better here than the shoutbox though so full steam ahead!

 

[clefty]

Do you even understand what your thread is about?

Sure do.

This thread is about one of the "10 commandments" for those that said/say "I do" to Him Who was at Sinai delivering these living oracles to the ekklesia in the wilderness.

Which one?

The 2nd "commandment" which safeguards the 1st much like the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution secures its first.

And to do so it has not one but four prohibitions for citizens of His kingdom which "thou dost not" do:

1. Don't make a carved image
2. Don't make ANY image (just in case the clever ones claim it’s about only graven idols of strange gods)
3. Don't bow down to any image made
4. Don't serve any image made

Whether a commandment was broken is the important part.

Yes...as to break a commandment is to sin...which leads to death. And a sin on purpose or by accident...the former being more evil...and making an image is an abomination to Him.

This Second "living oracle" is uniquely important as "breaking it" has the iniquity of the father passed down to the sons impacting 3-4 generations. The only "commandment" including this warning.

And because He is jealous…probably because He knows the free will He created us with to adulterate with another by using clever arguments and fancy words.

Several objects were fashioned by God's instruction, that is not a one off.

Not instructing that ANOTHER bronze serpent be made means exactly it was a one off. And it was understood as a one off as there were not multiple snakes made before or after this one off was destroyed for merely having incense burnt to serve it (or "burnt to pass through it like a window to heaven towards the One Who instructed it to be made")

And NOT instructing ANOTHER Cherubim to be made for the second temple makes that image also a one off. Thus NOBODY saw the Cherubim during the 400+ year Second Temple era not even the High Priest his once a year service. He didn’t see it much less kiss it. And happily nobody died for seeing it or touching it.

Please remember the first temple was destroyed BECAUSE the tribes of Israel worshiped Him from high places they created at home and NOT at Joorusalem. Obviously the Temple was a one off.

However was worship suspended without the Cherubim? Temple?

Hezekiah isnt God. Did God tell him to do this in the bible?

ummm...yes

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he stuck to the Lord, and departed not from his steps, but kept his commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses. 2 Kings 18:6 https://biblehub.com/2_kings/18-6.htm

You do note the reference back to the topic of this thread yes?

The name Hezekiah means "Yah strengthens" and is probably why he stuck to the "customs Moses delivered".

And the Bible tells many to keep zealous to these "living oracles delivered at Sinai to this ekklesia in the wilderness" as Stephen taught.

Even in the NT non believing joos zealous to protect their traditions witnessed that it was being taught "Jesus changed the customs Moses delivered". Maybe it was already being taught that we CAN make images BECAUSE He became incarnate?

Happily Luke made it clear that this was all FALSE witness by da joos in attempts to slander poor Stephen as Stephen was NOT teaching this since then it would be a TRUE witness and reason to kill him. You can read it here https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Acts-Chapter-6/

Not so patronising.

patronizing?...You were ranting about King Jimmy and his translations...and something about murder...and Hebrew names...I just wasn't sure you were reading this thread...

I will remind you that YOU brought up ONE OFFS and OTHER COMMANDEMENTS, so we shall be exploring these here.

yes I did...and I hope I now clarified all that...Yah instructing images is merely a detour from His original Will which is DIRECT communion with man and in no way abrogates His prohibition to making images (of anything) and bowing and serving images made.

And so even the Temple was a detour in our fallen state being kicked out of the garden and its one on one with Him.

and I also hope that we “shall be exploring these here”...

According to your stupid interpretations of the commandments there would be thousands of these one offs, an absurd suggestion.

...ya lost me here... my interpretations is evidenced in the OT as Israel often worshiped by making images and bowing and serving others made...fell to peer pressure…had envy of other nations…all known as idolatry its image making an abomination to Him.

In fact the WHOLE OT is a witness to their failure to keep the customs Moses delivered...

Once again this is a poor translation from the king james bible. God didn't create evil. Disaster is a better translation here.

...fine. (He however did create freedom to chose contrary His instruction)

So because He creates disaster…even calamity…are we to do so as well? Which is my original question...

Can we now live contrary to His prior instruction to live in accordance to His will and be a blessing to others?

"We can make images because He made them in the OT" Sounds a lot like what His adversary said "I would be like the Most High"

Or is that statement of His making calamity and causing disaster unique to Him...and His doings...the Law Giver...?

It is certainly NOT a new standard of doing things which abrogates and deviates from His prior instructions for us...

This cuts to the heart of your problem. You seem to think God does evil and instructs others to do evil; an example being your attributing Micaiah's story about what God said to God's own words -this is blasphemy.

Read it yourself:

1 Kings 22:21Then a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will entice him.’ ‘By what means?’ asked the LORD. 22And he replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ ‘You will surely entice him and prevail,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’ 23So you see, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has pronounced disaster against you.”

And to my original question:

Because Yah instructs here and now a lie to be told means He abrogates His prior "thou dost not bare false witness"?

And now because He did this "one off" we are allowed to bare false witness or repeat the lies of lying spirits which counter His Word for us?

Throughout the time prior the NT and for around a century after no joo taught images could be made because He instructed the Cherubim or bronze serpent.

Even the "first pope" was kept from making new places of worship.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 15 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him. Matt 17:14-15 ...makes sense Peter was interrupted from his idea as it was His Son who had delivered the living oracles at Sinai including the "no images" clause.

Did Bezalel, who was given special artistic workmanship skills by Yah Himself to create the Cherubim, continue making them from his Cherubim factory “for home and office…synagogue and field”..."order now and get bronze snake earrings too"...?

Did he argue "well the 2nd commandment was abrogated by Him so I can make some money now"...? (he was jooish after all)

Of course not.

The Cherubim were merely a detour from His original path for His people who choose to follow Him His Way...

“Return, O faithless children,” declares the LORD, “for I am your master, and I will take you—one from a city and two from a family—and bring you to Zion. 15Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.” 16“In those days, when you multiply and increase in the land,” declares the LORD, “they will no longer discuss the ark of the covenant of the LORD. It will never come to mind, and no one will remember it or miss it, nor will another one be made" Jeremiah 3:14

As for the temple itself in the the future eternal city which comes down from heaven “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” Revelation 21:22

But even most joos and Muslims accept that the “make no image” remains despite these one offs.

So please show me where just because the Word became flesh…because He became incarnate...He abrogated what He gave at Sinai.

Just show where and when He instructs we are now allowed to...not just we are able to...make His image because the Word became flesh.

The Church even teaches we MUST make His image or we deny that He was incarnate...lol

Again...just because Eve saw the incarnate fruit as good and able to be eaten...doesn't mean she should have...

 

[clefty]

Clefty is doing a whole lotta copy pasting and googling. This is the most retarded shit I've ever read. Better here than the shoutbox though so full steam ahead!

Yes yes...please don't trouble your big brain about all this...it's not for you anyways...

Most here merely ignore it...but thanks for stopping by...

 

[piscamaniac]

There we have it folks: clefty's god demands evil of his followers, says things are OK if it is just a "one off". A capricious and random god, a god anthropomorphised into a feminine character. clefty worships a demon, possibly the devil himself.

 

[clefty]

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-r...-russian-church-as-dangers-to-his-regime-grow

Putin now orders return of Russia's most precious icon to the church

Following the restitution of the silver Nevsky sarcophagus last week, the handover of Andrei Rublev's 15th-century Trinity has sparked concerns among conservators

www.theartnewspaper.com

They are useful indeed…

 

[clefty]

"Italy's leaders are showcasing Jesus amidst a secularized Europe."

..showcasing...Hmmm...how about living as per His example to witness Him.

Baffles me that He Himself didn't poise for a sculpture to be made of Him...knowing what joy comfort and proof that would bring to His followers.

It remains we worship in Truth and Spirit...

 

[clefty]

There we have it folks:

folks? They've all left...lol

clefty's god demands evil of his followers, says things are OK if it is just a "one off".

Things are OK ONLY if the Lawgiver Himself specifically instructs an unique act and directly and specifically.

Here maybe yet another example might help you clarify:

1 Samuel 15:17 Samuel continued, “You may not think you're very important, but the Lord chose you to be king, and you are in charge of the tribes of Israel. 18 When the Lord sent you on this mission, he told you to wipe out those worthless Amalekites. 19 Why didn't you listen to the Lord? Why did you keep the animals and make him angry?”

20 “But I did listen to the Lord!” Saul answered. “He sent me on a mission, and I went. I captured King Agag and destroyed his nation. 21 All the animals were going to be destroyed[e] anyway. That's why the army brought the best sheep and cattle to Gilgal as sacrifices to the Lord your God.”

22 “Tell me,” Samuel said. “Does the Lord really want sacrifices and offerings? No! He doesn't want your sacrifices. He wants you to obey him. 23 Rebelling against God or disobeying him because you are proud is just as bad as worshiping idols or asking them for advice. You refused to do what God told you, so God has decided that you can no longer be king.”

Because king Saul was instructed to go kill Israel's enemies was he now able to go kill whenever and whoever else he wanted? including David?Was "thou dost NOT kill" now abrogated?

Was David when king able to kill whenever he wanted? "Since He gave Saul instructions means I can to"...of course not. But he had to learn that too...

Was not Israel commanded NOT to kill? But since destroying Jericho could they go out and attack whenever and whoever they wanted?

Could they not steal and plunder the vanquished? Achan thought so "it's war right?"

Israel was instructed to take the ark around Jericho to defeat it. What happened when they thought they could take it into Philistine?

And why the displeasure with Saul here in 1 Samual? Were not sacrificed animals a pleasing aroma to Him?

Disobedience occurs and rebellion is revealed in NOT following direct orders...especially not following even more direct and specific orders.

NOT ONCE did those clever joos argue "but we can make other worship aids to venerate because He instructed us to"...well not successfully at least. It was always known as IDOLATRY and as an abomination to Him...as adultery tends to destroy the one to one of relationships.

A capricious and random god,

Hey look! Traffic accident ahead. And according to your logic a police officer standing in the road redirecting traffic into a detour around the accident is having all the drivers break the law. And is he establishing a new permanently altered course from the original?

But yeah lots of people hate the cops and their rules...so capricious and random.

a god anthropomorphised into a feminine character. clefty worships a demon, possibly the devil himself.

...that you favor your own active imaginations above what is true and real has already been established.

 

[White Swan]

There we have it folks: clefty's god demands evil of his followers, says things are OK if it is just a "one off". A capricious and random god, a god anthropomorphised into a feminine character. clefty worships a demon, possibly the devil himself.

And your sentiments are?

 

[piscamaniac]

And your sentiments are?

I prefer to rely on conclusions reached by rational consideration of my empirical observations (rather than my feelings and personal opinions). These conclusions lead me to be in agreement with Aristotle about the nature of God, the prime mover, a perfect entity incapable of doing evil.

 

[Gawn Chippin]

...polygamy was always used as an example of how to bring trouble to your house...

Polygamy introduced a problem, through resolving a problem. Namely, enabling Nights of Daggers, when a group of similar gender begins to conspire