Gawn Chippin
Arachnocronymic Metaphoron
It would "work out" better, if females knew how to fully gratifyOh, is that why it works out so well?
I give them the power to hold me to a certain level of hostage, if anything
"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything..."
- Thread starter clefty
- Start date
clefty
Phoron
Adam did the same...followed after Eve's idolatry...not seeing the fruit as He described it but as she did...
Gawn Chippin
Arachnocronymic Metaphoron
You might be missing the point of this appearantly analogous description of events of which were based on personal dealings with one another. If one wishes to apply this level of reasoning to other forms of supposed "idolatry", washing and polishing one's own automobile or watching television sports could also get classified as such an accusation
clefty
Phoron
Polygamy is a "dealings with one another" and breaks the contract between only A and B and not C D or E....joos even have Lilith as a prior wife
Just as this Jealous God wants a personal dealing with each of us...intimately...specifically...uniquely...
So don't start with another...
Deuteronomy 4:16
"Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,"
He is so jealous that making an image a similitude of any figure is like taking another wife.
And a breach of "So they (man and wife) are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate"
and OT Israel corrupted themselves to the point of voiding that prior covenant...ask Jeremiah et al
oh sure...cars and sports "could also get classified" as "supposed idolatry"...and often does as distracted minds usually do...
but I thought to address what else is written about what is an abomination to Him...
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Gawn Chippin
Arachnocronymic Metaphoron
I'm pondering the thought of replacing my avatar with blancness, in order to not tempt a jealous God
clefty
Phoron
"But in Hinduism, idols (murti) are worshipped as reminders of God. For example, every year, in Mumbai, Hindus bring clay images of Lord Ganesha to their homes, and worship him for a day or two before immersing the image in the sea. The ritual includes veneration (aradhana) which involves welcoming the divine, bathing him, offering him food, clothes, perfumes, lamps, incense, and finally words of praise. Here, the idol is seen as a vehicle — a physical, tangible carrier — of God.
Thus, an important point is made: Hindus don’t worship idols, believing them to be Gods. Rather, they view the statues and images as physical representations of God to help them focus on an aspect of prayer or meditation. This tradition is reflected in Verse 12.5 of the Bhagavad Gita, which states that only a few have the time and mind to ponder and fix on the unmanifested Absolute (abstract formless Brahman). As such, it is much easier to focus on qualities, virtues, aspects of a manifested representation of God through one’s senses, emotions and heart, because of the way human beings naturally are.
Furthermore, it is important to note that a murti in Hinduism is a form and manifestation of the omnipotent Brahman. Thus, a literal translation of murti as idol is incorrect, for Brahman is not actually confined to the idol. Additionally, Hindus believe that any object is worthy of worship, as it contains divine energy. Whether that be a slab of stone or a mosaic, the idols are designed with embedded symbolism, which set the style, proportion, colors, and legends associated with the deity."
www.hinduamerican.org
and yet...another sign of our ecumenical age:
"The Historic declaration made at the Jerusalem meet sets to rest the
wrong notion that Hinduism is idolatrous. The declaration reads: “It is recognized that
One Supreme Being in its formless and manifest aspects has been worshipped by
Hindus over millennia. The Hindus relate to only the One Supreme Being when
he/she prays to a particular manifestation. This does not mean that Hindus worship
‘idols’. They worship devataas who are manifestation of the One Supreme Being”.
The Chief Rabbi announced that it was a matter of relief to know that their hitherto
held perception was wrong.
At the Summit, Rabbi Rosen formally read the Declaration upon which the
leaders of the Rabbinate and the Hindu delegation had agreed. The nine-point
Declaration broadly (a) reaffirms the common Hindu and Jewish belief in One
Supreme Being both in its formless and manifest aspects; (b) expresses their
common world view of the sanctity of human life; (c) recognizes that all religions
are sacred for their people and therefore, no one should denigrate or interfere in
the religious practice of others; (d) recognizes that the Svastika is an ancient
Hindu symbol and was misappropriated by the Third Reich; and (e) calls for
serious reconsideration of the Aryan Migration Theory-a largely discredited,
racist theory that posits that an invasion by nomadic, non-Indian tribes conceived
the Vedic civilization."
Ephesians 4:17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.19Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more.
Thus, an important point is made: Hindus don’t worship idols, believing them to be Gods. Rather, they view the statues and images as physical representations of God to help them focus on an aspect of prayer or meditation. This tradition is reflected in Verse 12.5 of the Bhagavad Gita, which states that only a few have the time and mind to ponder and fix on the unmanifested Absolute (abstract formless Brahman). As such, it is much easier to focus on qualities, virtues, aspects of a manifested representation of God through one’s senses, emotions and heart, because of the way human beings naturally are.
Furthermore, it is important to note that a murti in Hinduism is a form and manifestation of the omnipotent Brahman. Thus, a literal translation of murti as idol is incorrect, for Brahman is not actually confined to the idol. Additionally, Hindus believe that any object is worthy of worship, as it contains divine energy. Whether that be a slab of stone or a mosaic, the idols are designed with embedded symbolism, which set the style, proportion, colors, and legends associated with the deity."
What Idolatry Means in Hinduism - Hindu American Foundation
Idolatry refers to the worship of a tangible idol, such as a statue or an icon. In Abrahamic religions, idolatry denotes the worship of something other than God — a...
www.hinduamerican.org
and yet...another sign of our ecumenical age:
"The Historic declaration made at the Jerusalem meet sets to rest the
wrong notion that Hinduism is idolatrous. The declaration reads: “It is recognized that
One Supreme Being in its formless and manifest aspects has been worshipped by
Hindus over millennia. The Hindus relate to only the One Supreme Being when
he/she prays to a particular manifestation. This does not mean that Hindus worship
‘idols’. They worship devataas who are manifestation of the One Supreme Being”.
The Chief Rabbi announced that it was a matter of relief to know that their hitherto
held perception was wrong.
At the Summit, Rabbi Rosen formally read the Declaration upon which the
leaders of the Rabbinate and the Hindu delegation had agreed. The nine-point
Declaration broadly (a) reaffirms the common Hindu and Jewish belief in One
Supreme Being both in its formless and manifest aspects; (b) expresses their
common world view of the sanctity of human life; (c) recognizes that all religions
are sacred for their people and therefore, no one should denigrate or interfere in
the religious practice of others; (d) recognizes that the Svastika is an ancient
Hindu symbol and was misappropriated by the Third Reich; and (e) calls for
serious reconsideration of the Aryan Migration Theory-a largely discredited,
racist theory that posits that an invasion by nomadic, non-Indian tribes conceived
the Vedic civilization."
Ephesians 4:17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.19Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more.
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clefty
Phoron
"He's a jealous God because He knows bad worship hurts us"...nice
Obviously worship is important and the first 4 of the "10 commandments" specifically deals with it.
And then this Bishop ignores the "make no image" part of the "first"...
...doesn't use His proper name...
...and bemoans Sundaz not being holy anymore..."it's just another Saturday...desacralized..." LOL
...might His Spirit still yet overturn the money changing tables in his life...his temple...
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White Swan
Member
That was recommended by youtube to me also, but I didn't watch it.
I think that there is a clear connection between new age practices like that and a false millenial reign. But I also think of crystals and stretches the way I think about the stars. It is wrong to think that the stars change things, but the stars can indicate changes to certain observers as it is only another creation of God, who set the stars on their set course at the beginning in order to prophecy that he always knew what would happen. Also, basically no one should assume they are proper interpreters of such things.
Gawn Chippin
Arachnocronymic Metaphoron
When Youtube recommends, mindlessly following their recommendations makes you their slave
clefty
Phoron
Martin Scorsese Meets Pope Francis, Announces Film About Jesus – Report
Martin Scorsese met with Pope Francis over the weekend and announced that he will make a new film about Jesus, according to multiple reports.
variety.com
"The conference was organized by Jesuit publication La Civiltà Cattolica and Georgetown University. Antonio Spadaro, editor of the religious periodical, said on the publication’s website that during their conversation at the confab Scorsese alternated between references to his films and personal anecdotes and explained “How the Holy Father’s appeal ‘to let us see Jesus’ moved him,” he said."
Wonder if this "new view of Jesus" will cause as much conflict as his https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Temptation_of_Christ_(film)
The Pope made this appeal for even more images of Jesus:
To Participants in the Conference promoted by "La Civiltà Cattolica" and by Georgetown University (27 May 2023) | Francis
To Participants in the Conference promoted by "La Civiltà Cattolica" and by Georgetown University, 27 May 2023
"This, then, is the challenge facing the Catholic imagination in our time. It is a challenge entrusted to you: not to “explain” the mystery of Christ, which is ultimately unfathomable, but to enable us to touch him, to feel his closeness, to let us see him as alive and to open our eyes to the beauty of his promises. Because his promises appeal to our imagination: they help us to imagine in a new way our lives, our history and the future of humanity."
As for the Catholic Imagination:
What Is the Catholic Imagination?
Michael Murphy, Director of the Hank Center at Loyola University Chicago, invites you to reexamine a hotly debated notion.
churchlifejournal.nd.edu
"As O’Connor well knew, the complexio oppositorum is both in and of the Imago Dei, and expresses itself as an attribute of the divine. But neat Neoplatonic propositions often collide with the reality of the Gospel as God enters into humankind not as unity, but as conflict. God is both a disruptive and fecundating “advent of a gracious catastrophe” to say it how O’Connor says it, appearing almost always, as Denise Levertov, another witness to the complexio has it, as “destructive construction,” where apparent opposites dissolve into the unity of theological mystery. It is God alone who negotiates contraries in ways that “burn our virtues away,” put “bottom rails on top,” and make straight crooked things—especially things (and people) hubristically convinced of their own moral rectitude or spiritual merit."
Scorsese's latest movie holds another mirror up to "da Qua" and all its idolized self image:
Killers of the Flower Moon (film) - Wikipedia
Obviously Scorsese's POV "disrupts" the image of America. As "woke" as when he challenged our view of Christ in "The Last Temptation".
Such "destructive construction" however does not cause as much conflict as when the POV of the Gospel is that He did NOT "change the customs Moses delivered to us" as was the false witness by "da joos". Acts 6:13-14
Just remind Christians of His upholding and not destroying/changing His Father's Will for us in His teaching and by His example for us follow…to ”hear and do”...to live just as He did
and grab the popcorn...lol
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White Swan
Member
Yeah, like is said, I didn't watch it
clefty
Phoron
...he's not bothered by open disobedience which He abhorred...as apparently there are so many much more fundamental questions..."I mean Who EXACTLY is tellin' us wut to do?...God?...fully?" LOL
So what if in His "hierarchy of truths" He listed it Second?...actually First in his favored tradition...the irony...
That's what is missed by these big brained authorities and their historical counsels...it is not "how do we see God?" but "how does He see us?".
In having accepted Him as God of our lives and so one of those "whosoever believes shall inherit" it is not how we see the Giver of our inheritance but how He sees us...
It is not "Is He worthy of worship He requested?" but "Are we worthy of His continuing gifts?"...gifts undeserved unearned...His grace...like when Adam's first full day was a day of rest...rest unearned as NOT after six days of work...
He loves us and wants for us but do we show Him it matters? Gratitude?
Do we reciprocate His love...commune in holy response...seek to please Him after all He did for us?...
Are we faithful obedient circumcised citizens of His kingdom and gratefully adopted into His family? or disobedient and rebellious...preoccupied and distracted with our "fundamental questions...prior commitments"
Maybe like the first century church we should focus more on becoming more like Him and His ways than making Him more like us and what we look like?
piscamaniac
MAGA Republican
No, this doesnt follow from what I wrote. This is also a poor analogy for your claims; if a cop redirects traffic in a way that leads to danger or an accident,i.e. does something immoral, then he has broken the law.
Lol, you poasted a bible quotation that contradicts your contention that Idols themselves werent worshiped.
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clefty
Phoron
This is what you wrote:
"There we have it folks: clefty's god demands evil of his followers, says things are OK if it is just a "one off". A capricious and random god, a god anthropomorphised into a feminine character. clefty worships a demon, possibly the devil himself."
I was responding and addressing specifically this:
"A capricious and random god"
It is NOT impulsive or unpredictable or random for an officer of the traffic law to divert the normal flow of travel for a specific need. And drivers that follow his instructions are not cited for breaking the established rule of the road. Nor should they expect this to be the NEW norm for traffic.
Yah's instructions for the Temple decorations or bronze serpent were also not capricious and random as both were for a specific need, namely the healing and restoration of Israel. And BECAUSE they were not a release from His prior expectations of His people.
See? It's exactly opposite of how you wish to slander me here.
If He had abrogated His prior Law with His "detour into the aesthetics" that would be "capricious and random" as exactly how would Israel please Him now? or avoid provoking Him to anger with their abominations?
What continual Grace His eternal immutable Law is...its order…hierarchy…structure…consistency…continuity…
Indeed what Grace to favor us with exact and clear specifics on when and how to worship Him and how NOT to...
Every good parent knows clear consistent structure is best for their children...and every good parent knows that there are times a one-off necessarily occurs.
What irony that you feel you can make images to bow and serve today because of one-off instructions He gave to the OT joos...lol
Wut?! You can't see it? That the officer's temporary slow down and detour does not become the new permanent traffic pattern?
How about when you drive up to a red light and stop but a cop waves you through...has that cop now given you permission to drive through future red lights?...of course not...
just like His one-off to make the bronze snake or the Temple doesn't contradict His "10 words" at Sinai...His Way has rules of the road...don't provoke Him to anger...
We are not talking about the cop but the drivers...the cop as an officer of the law can override but not permanently alter a traffic law.
However this discussion is about drivers who insist the cop (with his detour intervention) has permanently altered the flow of traffic.
This thread is about drivers who are now creating further accidents and congestion "because he said we could..." or because "he became visible"
"But but He did it first...He told joos to make images...and then He became incarnate...He made us do it...and besides...we ain't worshiping but just venerating"
But you want to talk about the cop...blame the cop...that capricious and random cop...blame the law enforcer...you're just like a woman...that woman Eve "the serpent made me do it"...lol
Of course the police officer is assisting traffic with a detour or by waving you through the red light...not into an accident or violating the traffic laws...no citation will be issued because you followed his instruction.
Who hates police that much to think an officer would?
Reprobate uncircumcised hearts hate Him too...think the worst of Him and His Law.
So it is His fault they burnt incense to the bronze serpent? And it's His fault they made a golden calf? and also because Moses delayed with the instructions not to?
Please recall Israel had only HEARD the commandment but once...and had not yet actually received the "10 words" written in stone...
Was this capricious and random Lawgiver to blame for Israel even using the Cherubim as a weapon of mass destruction?
And it's probably all His fault two more golden cows were set up to venerate by Solomon's grandson for the 10 tribes in order to avoid paying the steep Temple taxes at joorusalem. An act so abominable to Him that the 10 tribes of Israel were lost forever and joodah went into captivity, joorusalem's temple was destroyed and the cherubim, those famous ikons, were lost forever too...
Israel never argued..."well because You instructed bronze serpents and golden cherubim's to be made we can make other images too..."
"And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." Jer 32:35
And here you are "Well You should have thought of that when You had icons made"
No wonder He had to send His only begotten Icon in His Name and Spirit to demonstrate "in the flesh" how to live and worship WITHOUT using images bowing or serving them…but in/by His Spirit and Truth.
I'm not contending images weren't worshiped...the OT testifies Israel did...
…but those that use images even now as "windows to heaven...our honor and veneration passing through to the prototype"…I contend those who claim they do not worship their "worship aids".
They shouldn't have made them at all thus corrupting themselves further.
Beyond and addition to the making of an image of anything, His "living oracle" (which Moses delivered to us the ekklesia in the wilderness) prohibits us from merely bowing or serving any image made. An act abominable to Him.
Nothing is written there about worship as nodding my head to a friend is not worshiping him...nor is lighting a candle worship of the house...nor is burning incense in the bathroom worship of the "throne"...lol
I'm contending that the bronze serpent He instructed as a one-off BECAME an idol once His Spirit left it...and merely the act of burning incense to it had Hezekiah necessarily destroy it. Again the text says nothing of worship just that they burnt incense to it. Also abominable to Him as this was serving it.
And any protest "But but we ain't worshiping it...just venerating it...honoring it...as it's a memorial He commanded us to make...our adoration passes through it to its prototype" was NOT acceptable.
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piscamaniac
MAGA Republican
No, it's you that doesn't see. Telling someone to make a safe detour on a road and telling someone to commit murder are very different things.
White Swan
Member
"No its you who doesn't see" -
I believe warrants the question, what is it exactly that YOU see? Let's see, of your beliefs, what holds up to scrutiny to the same standard with which you criticize.
White Swan
Member
Let's explore the concept of "hostage", at least as much as you imply the concept of the state of your degeneracy. Almost as if you proved my point exactly.
This could be interesting.